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I'm pretty sure Android has a bunch of shell under the hood, and I don't have a jailbroken iOS device to check but I'd be a little surprised if it was different

I'm pretty sure Android has a bunch of shell under the hood, and I don't have a jailbroken iOS device to check but I'd be a little surprised if it was different. AWS may or may not, I don't know enough to comment. And yes, about embedded dev - there's the very very low level stuff of course, but the moment you get above tiny microcontrollers it's all Linux again and there's shell everywhere. Actually, even for the really tiny embedded stuff I'd still expect to find a mess of shell scripts, just in the build environment rather than on-device.

almostgotcaught 2y ago
> I'm pretty sure Android has a bunch of shell under the hood I didn't claim there was no shell - I claimed that IPC isn't performed with pipes.
- yjftsjthsd-h 2y ago
  And the kernel also doesn't run shell, but the claim was that you would struggle to find > software that doesn't involve shell at some level which would seem to me to encompass more of the stack. Like... okay, Android IPC isn't pipe-based. Does that release anyone from touching shell? Anyone working on a ROM is going to get their hands dirty with the rest of the OS. And I struggle to believe that any app developer is avoiding it (it's always the build step that does you in). Approximately nobody is working on just IPC in isolation.
  - almostgotcaught 2y ago
    > it's always the build step that does you in Just curious: where exactly is the shell in `cmake -GNinja`? Or is CMake not a build system hmmm? Nevermind that some people use bazel or meson or something ... other than shell... Shell scripts in your build system are a code smell. In cpp projects it's covering up for people that don't how to use the actually correct tool for the job: the CMake scripting language.
    - yjftsjthsd-h 2y ago
      > Just curious: where exactly is the shell in `cmake -GNinja`? Or is CMake not a build system hmmm? Nevermind that some people use bazel or meson or something ... other than shell... Right above it; cmake replaces make, but something still runs it. And IME that something is usually either a developer running it from a shell (ideally eventually with another shell command wrapping it to automatically build on file changes) or a CI system running it which is always a massive pile of shell scripts. To be fair, I don't doubt that if you really tried you could build a dev environment that used zero shell. But you would have to really try, and half of the things you had to build to make it work would inevitably converge to an informally-specified, bug-ridden, slow implementation of half of Common Lisp^w^wBASH.
    - wiseowise 2y ago
      > In cpp projects it's covering up for people that don't how to use the actually correct tool for the job: the CMake scripting language. That’s like saying that people use lotion because they don’t know how to correctly jerk off with sandpaper. Bash is ubiquitous and can be used everywhere, CMake scripting language can be used only in CMake, guess how many people know one better than the other?
      - almostgotcaught 2y ago
        > Bash is ubiquitous and can be used everywhere Sorry I wasn't aware bash added task graph features in some release?

almostgotcaught 2y ago

> I'm pretty sure Android has a bunch of shell under the hood I didn't claim there was no shell - I claimed that IPC isn't performed with pipes.

yjftsjthsd-h 2y ago
And the kernel also doesn't run shell, but the claim was that you would struggle to find > software that doesn't involve shell at some level which would seem to me to encompass more of the stack. Like... okay, Android IPC isn't pipe-based. Does that release anyone from touching shell? Anyone working on a ROM is going to get their hands dirty with the rest of the OS. And I struggle to believe that any app developer is avoiding it (it's always the build step that does you in). Approximately nobody is working on just IPC in isolation.
- almostgotcaught 2y ago
  > it's always the build step that does you in Just curious: where exactly is the shell in `cmake -GNinja`? Or is CMake not a build system hmmm? Nevermind that some people use bazel or meson or something ... other than shell... Shell scripts in your build system are a code smell. In cpp projects it's covering up for people that don't how to use the actually correct tool for the job: the CMake scripting language.
  - yjftsjthsd-h 2y ago
    > Just curious: where exactly is the shell in `cmake -GNinja`? Or is CMake not a build system hmmm? Nevermind that some people use bazel or meson or something ... other than shell... Right above it; cmake replaces make, but something still runs it. And IME that something is usually either a developer running it from a shell (ideally eventually with another shell command wrapping it to automatically build on file changes) or a CI system running it which is always a massive pile of shell scripts. To be fair, I don't doubt that if you really tried you could build a dev environment that used zero shell. But you would have to really try, and half of the things you had to build to make it work would inevitably converge to an informally-specified, bug-ridden, slow implementation of half of Common Lisp^w^wBASH.
  - wiseowise 2y ago
    > In cpp projects it's covering up for people that don't how to use the actually correct tool for the job: the CMake scripting language. That’s like saying that people use lotion because they don’t know how to correctly jerk off with sandpaper. Bash is ubiquitous and can be used everywhere, CMake scripting language can be used only in CMake, guess how many people know one better than the other?
    - almostgotcaught 2y ago
      > Bash is ubiquitous and can be used everywhere Sorry I wasn't aware bash added task graph features in some release?