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Would it be better to have an op-out database, where you have to log in with a Google account, and prove that you own the device somehow using geolocation? The

Would it be better to have an op-out database, where you have to log in with a Google account, and prove that you own the device somehow using geolocation? The system has to be resistant against bad actors taking someone else off the map who chooses to opt in. It would be better if the syntax were simpler, like changing myhouse to __myhouse (double underscore == private identifier). By setting SSID a certain way, you simultaneously show your intent to opt out and prove that you're the operator.

voltaireodactyl 2y ago
This assumes such a database is necessary in this first place, which in my mind would require serious justification to prove, given that it creates a situation where the customer’s security is degraded by default.
- kelnos 2y ago
  I do wonder how much it actually does improve location accuracy on phones. Certainly if you have no GPS signal at all it'll give you something rather than nothing, but if you do have GPS, does it really improve things?
  - zinekeller 2y ago
    If you are in an urban area (especially at the time it was introduced), it will really improve things, mainly because GPS* signal reflections in urban areas disrupt proper positioning. It won't put you into another continent but it tends to be around two magnitudes worse, especially when you're moving (from ~1 meter to ~100 meters). The fact that multi-band GPS is now common does reduce this problem, but this is still helpful in dense areas with high skyscrapers that can still attenuate both bands. * I'm using GPS here as shorthand for all GNSS systems (including GLONASS and Galileo).
  - plorg 2y ago
    At my workplace it used to identify my location as various places within a 300 mile radius of my actual location correlating (at best) to places where our ISP had a footprint, but sometimes even places that it didn't. In any case I had never connected to to our WiFi with my phone, so it would have to be correlating the IPs of users who had. I eventually found a place where you could submit location services corrections to Google and now it gets within 100 feet of the building. We used to joke about making a digital sign above our office door saying "Welcome to ___" which would use the location returned by the Google AGPS service.
    - vladvasiliu 2y ago
      Ever since "private relay" became available on my iphone (which I don't disable even when at home), whenever I get on google maps on my PC (so not going through the private relay) google maps always shows me in random cities hundreds of miles away. Maybe this has been useful when introduced, but I'm not convinced it still is the case.
  - izacus 2y ago
    Without it, your phone's location services would be next to useless in any kind of more urban area (next to useless = you'd have to wait for minutes for the phone to get a fix and burn a lot of battery in the process). It would not function inside a lot of buildings _at all_. People HATE HATE HATE and complain loudly at their phones if they fall back to pure A-GNSS positioning.
helsinkiandrew 2y ago
> Would it be better to have an op-out database The "_optout_nomap" postfix atleast gives a veneer of privacy that your SSID doesn't need to be sent by every nearby device to a backend service to see if it's in the opt-out database and logged/read by some government backfeed etc.
exe34 2y ago
no it would be great if you had to prove you own the device to opt-in.
- kazinator 2y ago
  After the most massive awareness campaign you can imagine to get people to know about this at all, the opt-in rate would likely be < 0.00000001%. Cash-like incentives would be required. Likely, router manufactures would have to be bribed to promote that to the users, and have some opt-in screen in the router firmware.
  - exe34 2y ago
    oh no, that's sad. anyway.
    - kazinator 2y ago
      Anyway, they are just going to help themselves to the SSIDs that Wi-Fi routers publicly advertise.
Gormo 2y ago
> Would it be better to have an op-out database, where you have to log in with a Google account, and prove that you own the device somehow using geolocation? Why not the same thing, but opt-in rather than opt-out?

voltaireodactyl 2y ago

This assumes such a database is necessary in this first place, which in my mind would require serious justification to prove, given that it creates a situation where the customer’s security is degraded by default.

kelnos 2y ago
I do wonder how much it actually does improve location accuracy on phones. Certainly if you have no GPS signal at all it'll give you something rather than nothing, but if you do have GPS, does it really improve things?
- zinekeller 2y ago
  If you are in an urban area (especially at the time it was introduced), it will really improve things, mainly because GPS* signal reflections in urban areas disrupt proper positioning. It won't put you into another continent but it tends to be around two magnitudes worse, especially when you're moving (from ~1 meter to ~100 meters). The fact that multi-band GPS is now common does reduce this problem, but this is still helpful in dense areas with high skyscrapers that can still attenuate both bands. * I'm using GPS here as shorthand for all GNSS systems (including GLONASS and Galileo).
- plorg 2y ago
  At my workplace it used to identify my location as various places within a 300 mile radius of my actual location correlating (at best) to places where our ISP had a footprint, but sometimes even places that it didn't. In any case I had never connected to to our WiFi with my phone, so it would have to be correlating the IPs of users who had. I eventually found a place where you could submit location services corrections to Google and now it gets within 100 feet of the building. We used to joke about making a digital sign above our office door saying "Welcome to ___" which would use the location returned by the Google AGPS service.
  - vladvasiliu 2y ago
    Ever since "private relay" became available on my iphone (which I don't disable even when at home), whenever I get on google maps on my PC (so not going through the private relay) google maps always shows me in random cities hundreds of miles away. Maybe this has been useful when introduced, but I'm not convinced it still is the case.
- izacus 2y ago
  Without it, your phone's location services would be next to useless in any kind of more urban area (next to useless = you'd have to wait for minutes for the phone to get a fix and burn a lot of battery in the process). It would not function inside a lot of buildings _at all_. People HATE HATE HATE and complain loudly at their phones if they fall back to pure A-GNSS positioning.

helsinkiandrew 2y ago

> Would it be better to have an op-out database The "_optout_nomap" postfix atleast gives a veneer of privacy that your SSID doesn't need to be sent by every nearby device to a backend service to see if it's in the opt-out database and logged/read by some government backfeed etc.

exe34 2y ago

no it would be great if you had to prove you own the device to opt-in.

kazinator 2y ago
After the most massive awareness campaign you can imagine to get people to know about this at all, the opt-in rate would likely be < 0.00000001%. Cash-like incentives would be required. Likely, router manufactures would have to be bribed to promote that to the users, and have some opt-in screen in the router firmware.
- exe34 2y ago
  oh no, that's sad. anyway.
  - kazinator 2y ago
    Anyway, they are just going to help themselves to the SSIDs that Wi-Fi routers publicly advertise.

Gormo 2y ago

> Would it be better to have an op-out database, where you have to log in with a Google account, and prove that you own the device somehow using geolocation? Why not the same thing, but opt-in rather than opt-out?