7 ms·

Help EFF Find Out How Your Local Police Agency is Using Drones

49 points by apievangelist 14y ago

mindcrime 14y ago
Man, I wish I had more time to spend at the local hackerspace, and start learning a bit about aeronautics... I dream of creating a DIY drone that can go up and shoot down these stupid (Gestapo|Stasi|KGB|$WHATEVER) drones that our governments are sending up.
- sukuriant 14y ago
  And get fined all the joys that would go along with: 1) intentionally destroying a police car or worse 2) killing a police officer (see what happens if you shoot a police dog)
  - snatch_backside 14y ago
    Yeah, because they'd definitely find out who sent the drone up. No possible way to hide that. A drone is like a fingerprint in that way!
    - blhack 14y ago
      I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or not, but yeah, if they got the drone you made, it would be pretty damn easy to find out that it was /you/ that made it. 1) You're manufacturing your own MEMS for gyros and accels [no]. 2) Sparkfun started accepting cash at their non-existent retail location [no]. Your drone is a flying dataset full of things pointing at your credit card and your home address. So good luck with that.
- Karunamon 14y ago
  "Gestapo drones" Welp. This thread was godwinned rather quickly. Have any argument that isn't based in hyperbole and other logical fallacies?
  - koglerjs 14y ago
    I'm trying to balance my obeisance to Godwin's Law with my very strong criticism/fear of drones in US airspace. It's hard. I _really_ think the potential for UAV abuse is high. But it's a Law of the Internet, I guess. You win this round.
    - mindcrime 14y ago
      "Godwin's Law" is nothing but another stupid Internet meme. It's about as useful as Natalie Portman covered in hot grits in Soviet Russia while welcoming our new Overlords by emailing South Korean people using Plan Nine From Outer Space. With Frickin' lasers.
    - Karunamon 14y ago
      >I _really_ think the potential for UAV abuse is high. I agree, however there's no legal standing to challenge it on. I'd rather spend my energy, instead of trying to fight something that is going to pass, to instead fight the abuses and make sure that the tool can't be misused too badly. Denying the tool outright is just silly, especially with our current understanding of privacy.
  - mindcrime 14y ago
    This thread was godwinned rather quickly. Fuck "Godwin's Law", as far as I'm concerned. It doesn't mean what 98% of people who invoke it think it means, and even if it did, who cares... it's just some off-hand observation by one random dude. But if it will make you feel better, I can edit my post and change it to reference the KGB or the Stasi or something, instead of the Gestapo. Have any argument that isn't based in hyperbole and other logical fallacies? Nope; I'm not here to argue.
    - Karunamon 14y ago
      Oh, so you're just posting content-free hyperbole then. Okay.
      - mindcrime 14y ago
- eck 14y ago
  Uh, super. Are you missing the fact that if these are flying over your city they are paid for by your taxes and the police will just buy another one, probably a bigger and more expensive one, justifying it by saying that "criminals are shooting them down because they're scared of them" or something? Also, if you think that a trip to a hackerspace qualifies you to build a UAV, I really don't want your armed UAV flying over my head. Maybe start with a $1M+ budget and a team of qualified aerospace, mechanical, and electrical engineers. Ones currently with well-paying, legal jobs willing to leave those to work on your angsty teenage temper tantrum that would ultimately be counterproductive anyway. I have experience with model airplanes and robotics and I'm against this as much as the next guy but if you asked me to join your team I would report you to the FBI before a model airplane with a shotgun duct taped to it crashes into my roof. If you really want to take criminal action to stop this, you should... no, I'm not going to tell you, lest you're dumb enough to try.
  - mindcrime 14y ago
    Are you missing the fact that if these are flying over your city they are paid for by your taxes Oh, no... in fact, that's a large portion of the problem. Also, if you think that a trip to a hackerspace qualifies you to build a UAV No, I expect it would take a ton of studying, research, experimentation, consulting with people with experience in that field, etc. But, ya know, on an Internet message board, it's sometimes necessary to omit some detail in the name of expediency. Kinda like how in a movie you never see the main characters stopping to go to the bathroom, or eat a meal (unless it's part of the plot), search for their car keys or wallet, or a myriad of other mundane details. work on your angsty teenage temper tantrum LOL, now that's funny. If you really want to take criminal action to stop this, you should... no, I'm not going to tell you, lest you're dumb enough to try. Thanks for the unjustified personal attack, that's so in-keeping with the spirit of HN...
- lotu 14y ago
  So it's okay for you have a drone, even a armed one, but it's not okay for the police to have one? This would be the equivalent to demanding the police not use cars and instead case suspects on foot. As a result of the high tech age we live in rapid changes in what is possible are happing one of them is unmanned arial vehicles, in another decade they will be cheap enough that you could get your own, and a decade after that high schoolers will use them for their school science fair.
  - mindcrime 14y ago
    So it's okay for you have a drone, even a armed one, but it's not okay for the police to have one? The police do have them.
- lotu 14y ago
  So it's okay for you have a drone, even a armed one, but it's not okay for the police to have one? This would be the equivalent to demanding the police not use cars and instead case suspects on foot. As a result of the high tech age we live in rapid changes in what is possible are happing one of them is unmanned arial vehicles, in another decade they will be cheap enough that you could get your own, and a decade after that high schoolers will use them for their school science fair.
snowwrestler 14y ago
Ok I get the potential privacy implications, but two things. 1) Aerial surveillance is not new. Ever seen the signs on the highway that say "speed limit enforced by aircraft?" Local jurisdictions have been flying small planes and helicopters for law enforcement for decades. 2) What is electronic about this? I mean, I get that the drones use electronics to gather and store data, but this feels like mission creep at the EFF to me. There are plenty of battles to fight online.
- dcesiel 14y ago
  I agree. Ohio has a whole fleet of police planes that they've been using to catch speeders on the highway for a long time. Also if you look at the FAA drone authorization list on the EFF's website most of the organizations getting authorization are either US DOD or Universities (Probably being used for research not surveillance). Not many police organizations.
- revelation 14y ago
  They are much much cheaper to operate compared to an actual plane with a pilot. That allows for invisible 24/7 surveillance of large areas. And that's where we get into police state territory. Its the same reason why you now need a judge to sign off on a GPS tracker. People made the same argument that police are already free to tail people, but don't realize the time and cost associated with doing so.
- ekianjo 14y ago
  1) yeah, but what is new is that such drones could fly at a much lower altitute, and be able to take pictures in great detail, with great stability, enabling face recognition, car tracking and so on. There's basically no frontier to the possibilities offered. A drone could follow someone between 2 houses, not a plane. 2) As long as you are talking about unmanned vehicles, everything's electronic. The way it captures information, the way it shares/stores information, how this is done without your consent, etc... in germany and some other countries people complained about the privacy abuse of Google cars, but this goes way beyond: it will be used by goverment or local state power, and there will close to nothing you can do to alter their practices. It's actually very relevant to the EFF mission. There's no "online" and "offline" once the two worlds are constantly bridged together.
mc32 14y ago
I don't think we know the implications of drone aircraft used by local police forces. Not knowing should not take it off the table, it should rather require oversight to make sure the populace agrees with their mission, if the mission were to change. On the one hand, it could save municipalities money by affording a more effective police force. As mentioned earlier, this is an extension of what agencies do now --except that they'd be unpersonned. On the other hand, what are the implications if they were to arm these drones with some kind of lethal force? I think if they were limited to reconnaissance, search (maybe not rescue), aiding in enforcement of law, I don't see how drones become automatically off-limits. I'm probably missing something, but those are my thoughts now.
- ekianjo 14y ago
  Isn't that the same debate as CCTVs surveillance in London ? They were placing surveillance cameras everywhere to say it would be more effective to fight crime, but actually it does not do anything to prevent it. At most, they can get some pictures of what ever happened, but that does not prevent it from happening in the first place. Having drones is basically a very similar idea, while the camera is moving. I don't think we need more effective police force. We DO need more effective control over our government and policies that extend powers over our lives.
  - mc32 14y ago
    I think there's some merit to being able to solve crimes more effectively after the fact --even if they don't prevent them as much as desired. That police can upload an image of a suspect and see if they have been captured on camera somewhere is of value. They do that in Japan; it aids the police in tracking a known criminal, so long as they're not careful (which is very difficult) -ie take taxis avoid walking in most urban areas, etc. More effectiveness means fewer people are needed to police a given population, that reduces the cost --which is typically what people are most sensitive about. You may be more sensitive about other aspects, but you might not align with most people in that regard. There is also Shotspotter technology, it helps in driving police to a firearm discharge, rather than prevent the discharge. Never the less, it helps police manage crime better.
cheatercheater 14y ago
I am glad the EFF is doing this sort of thing. It seems like a good reactionary stance that should help the society at large. Will the data be available anywhere publicly? It doesn't seem like the EFF mention that I am sending them the data under a license. Is that something I have missed, or have they overlooked this? It seems like an important part of the equation.

49 points by apievangelist 14y ago

Man, I wish I had more time to spend at the local hackerspace, and start learning a bit about aeronautics... I dream of creating a DIY drone that can go up and shoot down these stupid (Gestapo|Stasi|KGB|$WHATEVER) drones that our governments are sending up.

sukuriant 14y ago
And get fined all the joys that would go along with: 1) intentionally destroying a police car or worse 2) killing a police officer (see what happens if you shoot a police dog)
- snatch_backside 14y ago
  Yeah, because they'd definitely find out who sent the drone up. No possible way to hide that. A drone is like a fingerprint in that way!
  - blhack 14y ago
    I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or not, but yeah, if they got the drone you made, it would be pretty damn easy to find out that it was /you/ that made it. 1) You're manufacturing your own MEMS for gyros and accels [no]. 2) Sparkfun started accepting cash at their non-existent retail location [no]. Your drone is a flying dataset full of things pointing at your credit card and your home address. So good luck with that.
Karunamon 14y ago
"Gestapo drones" Welp. This thread was godwinned rather quickly. Have any argument that isn't based in hyperbole and other logical fallacies?
- koglerjs 14y ago
  I'm trying to balance my obeisance to Godwin's Law with my very strong criticism/fear of drones in US airspace. It's hard. I _really_ think the potential for UAV abuse is high. But it's a Law of the Internet, I guess. You win this round.
  - mindcrime 14y ago
    "Godwin's Law" is nothing but another stupid Internet meme. It's about as useful as Natalie Portman covered in hot grits in Soviet Russia while welcoming our new Overlords by emailing South Korean people using Plan Nine From Outer Space. With Frickin' lasers.
  - Karunamon 14y ago
    >I _really_ think the potential for UAV abuse is high. I agree, however there's no legal standing to challenge it on. I'd rather spend my energy, instead of trying to fight something that is going to pass, to instead fight the abuses and make sure that the tool can't be misused too badly. Denying the tool outright is just silly, especially with our current understanding of privacy.
- mindcrime 14y ago
  This thread was godwinned rather quickly. Fuck "Godwin's Law", as far as I'm concerned. It doesn't mean what 98% of people who invoke it think it means, and even if it did, who cares... it's just some off-hand observation by one random dude. But if it will make you feel better, I can edit my post and change it to reference the KGB or the Stasi or something, instead of the Gestapo. Have any argument that isn't based in hyperbole and other logical fallacies? Nope; I'm not here to argue.
  - Karunamon 14y ago
    Oh, so you're just posting content-free hyperbole then. Okay.
    - mindcrime 14y ago
eck 14y ago
Uh, super. Are you missing the fact that if these are flying over your city they are paid for by your taxes and the police will just buy another one, probably a bigger and more expensive one, justifying it by saying that "criminals are shooting them down because they're scared of them" or something? Also, if you think that a trip to a hackerspace qualifies you to build a UAV, I really don't want your armed UAV flying over my head. Maybe start with a $1M+ budget and a team of qualified aerospace, mechanical, and electrical engineers. Ones currently with well-paying, legal jobs willing to leave those to work on your angsty teenage temper tantrum that would ultimately be counterproductive anyway. I have experience with model airplanes and robotics and I'm against this as much as the next guy but if you asked me to join your team I would report you to the FBI before a model airplane with a shotgun duct taped to it crashes into my roof. If you really want to take criminal action to stop this, you should... no, I'm not going to tell you, lest you're dumb enough to try.
- mindcrime 14y ago
  Are you missing the fact that if these are flying over your city they are paid for by your taxes Oh, no... in fact, that's a large portion of the problem. Also, if you think that a trip to a hackerspace qualifies you to build a UAV No, I expect it would take a ton of studying, research, experimentation, consulting with people with experience in that field, etc. But, ya know, on an Internet message board, it's sometimes necessary to omit some detail in the name of expediency. Kinda like how in a movie you never see the main characters stopping to go to the bathroom, or eat a meal (unless it's part of the plot), search for their car keys or wallet, or a myriad of other mundane details. work on your angsty teenage temper tantrum LOL, now that's funny. If you really want to take criminal action to stop this, you should... no, I'm not going to tell you, lest you're dumb enough to try. Thanks for the unjustified personal attack, that's so in-keeping with the spirit of HN...
lotu 14y ago
So it's okay for you have a drone, even a armed one, but it's not okay for the police to have one? This would be the equivalent to demanding the police not use cars and instead case suspects on foot. As a result of the high tech age we live in rapid changes in what is possible are happing one of them is unmanned arial vehicles, in another decade they will be cheap enough that you could get your own, and a decade after that high schoolers will use them for their school science fair.
- mindcrime 14y ago
  So it's okay for you have a drone, even a armed one, but it's not okay for the police to have one? The police do have them.
lotu 14y ago
So it's okay for you have a drone, even a armed one, but it's not okay for the police to have one? This would be the equivalent to demanding the police not use cars and instead case suspects on foot. As a result of the high tech age we live in rapid changes in what is possible are happing one of them is unmanned arial vehicles, in another decade they will be cheap enough that you could get your own, and a decade after that high schoolers will use them for their school science fair.

snowwrestler 14y ago

Ok I get the potential privacy implications, but two things. 1) Aerial surveillance is not new. Ever seen the signs on the highway that say "speed limit enforced by aircraft?" Local jurisdictions have been flying small planes and helicopters for law enforcement for decades. 2) What is electronic about this? I mean, I get that the drones use electronics to gather and store data, but this feels like mission creep at the EFF to me. There are plenty of battles to fight online.

dcesiel 14y ago
I agree. Ohio has a whole fleet of police planes that they've been using to catch speeders on the highway for a long time. Also if you look at the FAA drone authorization list on the EFF's website most of the organizations getting authorization are either US DOD or Universities (Probably being used for research not surveillance). Not many police organizations.
revelation 14y ago
They are much much cheaper to operate compared to an actual plane with a pilot. That allows for invisible 24/7 surveillance of large areas. And that's where we get into police state territory. Its the same reason why you now need a judge to sign off on a GPS tracker. People made the same argument that police are already free to tail people, but don't realize the time and cost associated with doing so.
ekianjo 14y ago
1) yeah, but what is new is that such drones could fly at a much lower altitute, and be able to take pictures in great detail, with great stability, enabling face recognition, car tracking and so on. There's basically no frontier to the possibilities offered. A drone could follow someone between 2 houses, not a plane. 2) As long as you are talking about unmanned vehicles, everything's electronic. The way it captures information, the way it shares/stores information, how this is done without your consent, etc... in germany and some other countries people complained about the privacy abuse of Google cars, but this goes way beyond: it will be used by goverment or local state power, and there will close to nothing you can do to alter their practices. It's actually very relevant to the EFF mission. There's no "online" and "offline" once the two worlds are constantly bridged together.

mc32 14y ago

I don't think we know the implications of drone aircraft used by local police forces. Not knowing should not take it off the table, it should rather require oversight to make sure the populace agrees with their mission, if the mission were to change. On the one hand, it could save municipalities money by affording a more effective police force. As mentioned earlier, this is an extension of what agencies do now --except that they'd be unpersonned. On the other hand, what are the implications if they were to arm these drones with some kind of lethal force? I think if they were limited to reconnaissance, search (maybe not rescue), aiding in enforcement of law, I don't see how drones become automatically off-limits. I'm probably missing something, but those are my thoughts now.

ekianjo 14y ago
Isn't that the same debate as CCTVs surveillance in London ? They were placing surveillance cameras everywhere to say it would be more effective to fight crime, but actually it does not do anything to prevent it. At most, they can get some pictures of what ever happened, but that does not prevent it from happening in the first place. Having drones is basically a very similar idea, while the camera is moving. I don't think we need more effective police force. We DO need more effective control over our government and policies that extend powers over our lives.
- mc32 14y ago
  I think there's some merit to being able to solve crimes more effectively after the fact --even if they don't prevent them as much as desired. That police can upload an image of a suspect and see if they have been captured on camera somewhere is of value. They do that in Japan; it aids the police in tracking a known criminal, so long as they're not careful (which is very difficult) -ie take taxis avoid walking in most urban areas, etc. More effectiveness means fewer people are needed to police a given population, that reduces the cost --which is typically what people are most sensitive about. You may be more sensitive about other aspects, but you might not align with most people in that regard. There is also Shotspotter technology, it helps in driving police to a firearm discharge, rather than prevent the discharge. Never the less, it helps police manage crime better.

cheatercheater 14y ago

I am glad the EFF is doing this sort of thing. It seems like a good reactionary stance that should help the society at large. Will the data be available anywhere publicly? It doesn't seem like the EFF mention that I am sending them the data under a license. Is that something I have missed, or have they overlooked this? It seems like an important part of the equation.