4 ms·

They had a positive belief. Conventionally, people come to positive beliefs after observing evidence*. I'm accusing them of not doing this. They absolutely coul

They had a positive belief. Conventionally, people come to positive beliefs after observing evidence*. I'm accusing them of not doing this. They absolutely could have known better; they simply chose not to look. *: Exception: beliefs about Other Groups of People, which are conventionally formed by looking at Our Group of People, then inventing ways that Other Groups of People are different and/or worse.

s1artibartfast 2y ago
OK, I see what is going on. I believe they were likely correct and basing their opinion directly from observational data. Syphilis was rampant and education was extremely low. You think they were wrong, and assume observational data would refute it.
- wizzwizz4 2y ago
  In this case, observational data did refute it. >> [list of stereotypes] contribute to […] the prevailing indifference with regards to treatment. >> the promise of medical treatment […] secured subjects' cooperation in the study However, you're right: I was actually using the heuristic "racists are full of shit". This heuristic is pretty useful, because it means you can do useful things with your life instead of analysing and refuting bullshit racist argument #453054624.
- rectang 2y ago
  Characterizing "rather low intelligence of the Negro population" (not educational attainment, but "intelligence") as "likely correct" is shocking. But it's also not an uncommon perspective on HN. Lots of "The Bell Curve" truthers here.
  - s1artibartfast 2y ago
    I think educational attainment and intelligence are correlated, and understand the quote to be in relation to a specific group, time, and place (and not race as a category). Individuals arent statistics, but environmental circumstances have profound impact on cognitive development and intelligence measures.
somenameforme 2y ago
Here is a study that gives a completely encyclopedic coverage of the context, data, and knowledge of the time. [1] If you're at all interested in this topic, I'd strongly encourage checking it out. It is the most extensively informative paper, on any topic, that I have ever seen, by far. I have no idea how many years the author spent collecting the data he presents there but it was clearly a labor of love. For some relevant points: in Georgia, they carried out widescale syphilis testing, on the scale of hundreds of thousands in 1945. Counties adjacent to Tuskegee reached 89% test coverage, with the outcome being an infection rate of 30% in black individuals and 3% in white individuals. Of course people wouldn't have known the exact numbers back when the Tuskegee study started in 1932, but with such ridiculously high rates of infection, they'd have had a generally accurate idea. It's also accurate that the majority of those who were infected had not proactively sought out medical treatment. That knowledge is part of what led Georgia to mandate the blood tests and pair it alongside recommendations of treatment for those infected. How do you think you would have framed these data at the time with a wide open Overton Window, no notions of political correctness, and so on? To be clear, as always, I am not defending the Tuskegee experiment, the people who did it, their views, or anything of the sort. They did awful things, obviously. But what I am trying to show is that if we were in their shoes, in the same situation, in the same context, it would have been all too easy to fall into the exact same trappings. It's only by really understanding the past that we might ever try to hope to avoid repeating it. When we simply demonize the past, the only lesson to be learned is don't be a demon. And certainly none of us think ourselves demons, so surely such things could never happen again. But with that mindset, they most assuredly will! [1] - https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/224795 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullar...
- rectang 2y ago
  > To be clear, as always, I am not defending the Tuskegee experiment, the people who did it, their views, or anything of the sort. But it looks to me as though you are tirelessly excusing the researchers and spending many hours starting from the conclusion that there was nothing racist about what went on at Tuskegee and then reasoning backwards. All humans are capable of racist actions, but some uphold the moral duty to fight against that tendency more conscientiously than others.

s1artibartfast 2y ago

OK, I see what is going on. I believe they were likely correct and basing their opinion directly from observational data. Syphilis was rampant and education was extremely low. You think they were wrong, and assume observational data would refute it.

wizzwizz4 2y ago
In this case, observational data did refute it. >> [list of stereotypes] contribute to […] the prevailing indifference with regards to treatment. >> the promise of medical treatment […] secured subjects' cooperation in the study However, you're right: I was actually using the heuristic "racists are full of shit". This heuristic is pretty useful, because it means you can do useful things with your life instead of analysing and refuting bullshit racist argument #453054624.
rectang 2y ago
Characterizing "rather low intelligence of the Negro population" (not educational attainment, but "intelligence") as "likely correct" is shocking. But it's also not an uncommon perspective on HN. Lots of "The Bell Curve" truthers here.
- s1artibartfast 2y ago
  I think educational attainment and intelligence are correlated, and understand the quote to be in relation to a specific group, time, and place (and not race as a category). Individuals arent statistics, but environmental circumstances have profound impact on cognitive development and intelligence measures.

somenameforme 2y ago

Here is a study that gives a completely encyclopedic coverage of the context, data, and knowledge of the time. [1] If you're at all interested in this topic, I'd strongly encourage checking it out. It is the most extensively informative paper, on any topic, that I have ever seen, by far. I have no idea how many years the author spent collecting the data he presents there but it was clearly a labor of love. For some relevant points: in Georgia, they carried out widescale syphilis testing, on the scale of hundreds of thousands in 1945. Counties adjacent to Tuskegee reached 89% test coverage, with the outcome being an infection rate of 30% in black individuals and 3% in white individuals. Of course people wouldn't have known the exact numbers back when the Tuskegee study started in 1932, but with such ridiculously high rates of infection, they'd have had a generally accurate idea. It's also accurate that the majority of those who were infected had not proactively sought out medical treatment. That knowledge is part of what led Georgia to mandate the blood tests and pair it alongside recommendations of treatment for those infected. How do you think you would have framed these data at the time with a wide open Overton Window, no notions of political correctness, and so on? To be clear, as always, I am not defending the Tuskegee experiment, the people who did it, their views, or anything of the sort. They did awful things, obviously. But what I am trying to show is that if we were in their shoes, in the same situation, in the same context, it would have been all too easy to fall into the exact same trappings. It's only by really understanding the past that we might ever try to hope to avoid repeating it. When we simply demonize the past, the only lesson to be learned is don't be a demon. And certainly none of us think ourselves demons, so surely such things could never happen again. But with that mindset, they most assuredly will! [1] - https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/224795 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullar...

rectang 2y ago
> To be clear, as always, I am not defending the Tuskegee experiment, the people who did it, their views, or anything of the sort. But it looks to me as though you are tirelessly excusing the researchers and spending many hours starting from the conclusion that there was nothing racist about what went on at Tuskegee and then reasoning backwards. All humans are capable of racist actions, but some uphold the moral duty to fight against that tendency more conscientiously than others.