4 ms·

I’ve lived here for ~10 years and I’m still learning. The base realization is that if you come from a mostly homogenous (or openly racist a la apartheid) backgr

by Swizec 2y ago

I’ve lived here for ~10 years and I’m still learning. The base realization is that if you come from a mostly homogenous (or openly racist a la apartheid) background, you simply can’t understand how American style racism works. In my home country we have so few black and asian people that exact numbers can’t be reported in the census because it would be considered personal information. Sure we have racism but it’s purely of the “fear of new/unknown” kind. Anything more than that we learned from american media. A better analogy, if you come from such a background, might be to replace racism with ethnicism. We’re really good at ethnicism in Europe in a way that’s a lot more similar to how america does racism.

kjkjadksj 2y ago
[flagged]
- Swizec 2y ago
  Cartoons from the 1920’s and up to 1940’s are full of racist tropes like that And yes we watch those as kids at least in Europe because “all cartoons are for kids”
  - kjkjadksj 2y ago
    Not nearly as bad as what happened in Europe during the 1940s in terms of race relations that's for damn sure
graemep 2y ago
Its not quite that. The US is also different from other countries with large non-white minorities. I think you are right that race, ethnicity and other things (such as caste) are much the same thing: you are classified by some group you are born into, and you and your descendants cannot move out of. However it is also different in every culture. It look me a long time to understand how the US is different from countries I know (which are definitely not homogenous, though some are fairly openly racist). I could see race was much more ingrained in the culture compared to the UK, but did not understand why. The insight for me (mostly thanks to Isabel Wilkerson's book Caste) is that race in American is a caste distinction: it is a hierarchy rather than just hostility to the outsider. I wrote a blog post on this: https://pietersz.co.uk/2023/08/racism-culture-different https://pietersz.co.uk/2023/08/racism-culture-different
- iftheshoefitss 2y ago
  I would posit it’s not a caste system similar to India’s caste system or old school feudalism. Being an outsider definitely plays a part for instance the treatment of Italian immigrants. In my experience if you’re part of a certain group you might or will get mistreated but if you’re part of that group and also an outsider oof you’re in for one tortured existence. Which is kind of contradictory because the USA is one of the few places that openly welcomes outsiders (like you don’t see migrants trying to go to China or Russia) but at the same time if you’re deemed persona non grata like for whatever reason the land will mess with your life, health and so on unlike any other place
  - graemep 2y ago
    How is it not a caste system? A caste system can ALSO be hostile to outsiders on an ethnic or religious basis (plenty of examples of both in South Asia!) in addition to the caste system. Feudalism is not a caste system. In a feudal system people can move up and down to some extent, and over generations people can move a lot. It was possible for people to marry to at least some extent. There is no notion of pure blood or pollution. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/228717335_Was_there_ever_a_Ruling_Class_Surnames_and_Social_Mobility_in_England_1200-2009 https://www.researchgate.net/publication/228717335_Was_there...
    - gamblor956 2y ago
      In a caste system, your "worth" is decided at birth based on what caste system you are born into, and your opportunities and relationships are determined by that. The US has some of the highest rates of interracial marriages, relationships, etc. in the world. Mobility in America is driven by socioeconomic class, not race, and gender plays a heavy role in educational success in some races (more than race itself), but not others, for various historical reasons. In order to cast U.S. racial relations into a type "caste" system, you'd have to stretch the definition of caste so thin that it wouldn't have any meaning.
      - alan-hn 2y ago
jajko 2y ago
Oh we have quite a bit of racism in Europe too, just go to eastern part. People are not so vocal about it, unless in 'their' circles. Sure, its all mixed together with fear of different religions, xenophobia which I would say is still dominant force, and its targeted way more on black people rather than east asians, but these days its there, even on places that had 0 of it due to literally 0 exposure to other races few decades ago. I personally saw first black person in person as a teenager for example. Big parts of societies are quite radicalized if you care to look closely enough, which many don't and consider Europe some form of uniform hippie paradise. But then you can't escape the reality of ie string of victories of more or less extreme right winders all getting the vote 'to stop immigration'. Whole Brexit was fueled mainly by such xenophobia, it would be insignificant fart in the wind without this. My personal opinion is that before countries like Germany decided to allow unregulated immigration en masse and try to push rest of EU in same direction without asking, serious discussions should have taken place for a long time and explained to common folks why, in what form, for how long, how will it affect them, how will state protect them etc. Instead, at least eastern part went through shock therapy and hence often seen kneejerk reaction of refusing everything.
- mrguyorama 2y ago
  >Oh we have quite a bit of racism in Europe too, Just mention Romanians and Europeans can pretty quickly get a sense of how racism works in the US
renewiltord 2y ago
For European racism, just bring up the Roma and wait for a European to say things that no one in any American city would say.
- anal_reactor 2y ago
  It's different. Europeans are proud of hating gypsies, we just don't bring this up around Americans because of how poorly they react when we show them our point of view. Racism and pedophilia are two most sensitive topics for Americans, who feel like they're on the holy mission to free the world from these two evils.
  - archagon 2y ago
    If you’re ever “proud” of hating someone, you should go see a therapist. (Or a priest.)
    - anal_reactor 2y ago
      [flagged]
      - archagon 2y ago
        It’s possible to criticize culture without being racist or resorting to virulent, gleeful hate. Have you met any actual Romani aside from the occasional panhandler? You’d think Europeans would welcome the ones that try to escape their culture, and yet they face roadblocks and discrimination along every step of the way. Instead of hate, why not try a little empathy or even pity for people born into unfortunate circumstances? Your mentality is despicable, period, even without the American racial lens. (And for what it’s worth, I was born in Europe and am very much familiar with this bullshit first hand.) So feel free to continue nodding and smiling. We can see right through it. Rest assured that it reflects far more poorly on you than the Romani, whatever their flaws may be.
        anal_reactor 2y ago

by Swizec 2y ago

kjkjadksj 2y ago

[flagged]

Swizec 2y ago
Cartoons from the 1920’s and up to 1940’s are full of racist tropes like that And yes we watch those as kids at least in Europe because “all cartoons are for kids”
- kjkjadksj 2y ago
  Not nearly as bad as what happened in Europe during the 1940s in terms of race relations that's for damn sure

graemep 2y ago

Its not quite that. The US is also different from other countries with large non-white minorities. I think you are right that race, ethnicity and other things (such as caste) are much the same thing: you are classified by some group you are born into, and you and your descendants cannot move out of. However it is also different in every culture. It look me a long time to understand how the US is different from countries I know (which are definitely not homogenous, though some are fairly openly racist). I could see race was much more ingrained in the culture compared to the UK, but did not understand why. The insight for me (mostly thanks to Isabel Wilkerson's book Caste) is that race in American is a caste distinction: it is a hierarchy rather than just hostility to the outsider. I wrote a blog post on this: https://pietersz.co.uk/2023/08/racism-culture-different https://pietersz.co.uk/2023/08/racism-culture-different

iftheshoefitss 2y ago
I would posit it’s not a caste system similar to India’s caste system or old school feudalism. Being an outsider definitely plays a part for instance the treatment of Italian immigrants. In my experience if you’re part of a certain group you might or will get mistreated but if you’re part of that group and also an outsider oof you’re in for one tortured existence. Which is kind of contradictory because the USA is one of the few places that openly welcomes outsiders (like you don’t see migrants trying to go to China or Russia) but at the same time if you’re deemed persona non grata like for whatever reason the land will mess with your life, health and so on unlike any other place
- graemep 2y ago
  How is it not a caste system? A caste system can ALSO be hostile to outsiders on an ethnic or religious basis (plenty of examples of both in South Asia!) in addition to the caste system. Feudalism is not a caste system. In a feudal system people can move up and down to some extent, and over generations people can move a lot. It was possible for people to marry to at least some extent. There is no notion of pure blood or pollution. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/228717335_Was_there_ever_a_Ruling_Class_Surnames_and_Social_Mobility_in_England_1200-2009 https://www.researchgate.net/publication/228717335_Was_there...
  - gamblor956 2y ago
    In a caste system, your "worth" is decided at birth based on what caste system you are born into, and your opportunities and relationships are determined by that. The US has some of the highest rates of interracial marriages, relationships, etc. in the world. Mobility in America is driven by socioeconomic class, not race, and gender plays a heavy role in educational success in some races (more than race itself), but not others, for various historical reasons. In order to cast U.S. racial relations into a type "caste" system, you'd have to stretch the definition of caste so thin that it wouldn't have any meaning.
    - alan-hn 2y ago

jajko 2y ago

Oh we have quite a bit of racism in Europe too, just go to eastern part. People are not so vocal about it, unless in 'their' circles. Sure, its all mixed together with fear of different religions, xenophobia which I would say is still dominant force, and its targeted way more on black people rather than east asians, but these days its there, even on places that had 0 of it due to literally 0 exposure to other races few decades ago. I personally saw first black person in person as a teenager for example. Big parts of societies are quite radicalized if you care to look closely enough, which many don't and consider Europe some form of uniform hippie paradise. But then you can't escape the reality of ie string of victories of more or less extreme right winders all getting the vote 'to stop immigration'. Whole Brexit was fueled mainly by such xenophobia, it would be insignificant fart in the wind without this. My personal opinion is that before countries like Germany decided to allow unregulated immigration en masse and try to push rest of EU in same direction without asking, serious discussions should have taken place for a long time and explained to common folks why, in what form, for how long, how will it affect them, how will state protect them etc. Instead, at least eastern part went through shock therapy and hence often seen kneejerk reaction of refusing everything.

mrguyorama 2y ago
>Oh we have quite a bit of racism in Europe too, Just mention Romanians and Europeans can pretty quickly get a sense of how racism works in the US

renewiltord 2y ago

For European racism, just bring up the Roma and wait for a European to say things that no one in any American city would say.

anal_reactor 2y ago
It's different. Europeans are proud of hating gypsies, we just don't bring this up around Americans because of how poorly they react when we show them our point of view. Racism and pedophilia are two most sensitive topics for Americans, who feel like they're on the holy mission to free the world from these two evils.
- archagon 2y ago
  If you’re ever “proud” of hating someone, you should go see a therapist. (Or a priest.)
  - anal_reactor 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - archagon 2y ago
      It’s possible to criticize culture without being racist or resorting to virulent, gleeful hate. Have you met any actual Romani aside from the occasional panhandler? You’d think Europeans would welcome the ones that try to escape their culture, and yet they face roadblocks and discrimination along every step of the way. Instead of hate, why not try a little empathy or even pity for people born into unfortunate circumstances? Your mentality is despicable, period, even without the American racial lens. (And for what it’s worth, I was born in Europe and am very much familiar with this bullshit first hand.) So feel free to continue nodding and smiling. We can see right through it. Rest assured that it reflects far more poorly on you than the Romani, whatever their flaws may be.
      - anal_reactor 2y ago