7 ms·

This might be a very American-centric view but I usually tell people that if you have a garage or driveway then your electric car ownership will be a dream wher

by atonse 2y ago

This might be a very American-centric view but I usually tell people that if you have a garage or driveway then your electric car ownership will be a dream where you truly stop thinking about range. But if you don't, I can imagine there being more stress about charging times, fast chargers, etc. For road trips, thanks to Tesla's extensive Supercharger network, they are really great for that. But with more standards (CCS and NACS) becoming pervasive, hopefully this becomes an issue of the past (payments, etc). My big question is, I don't understand why the oil companies haven't gotten on board. Why aren't we seeing more and more L3 chargers at gas stations?

blowfish721 2y ago
Germany seems to be forcing this through law in a few years. https://www.heise.de/en/news/Elektroautos-Bundesregierung-beschliesst-Ladesaeulenpflicht-fuer-Tankstellen-9740583.html https://www.heise.de/en/news/Elektroautos-Bundesregierung-be...
coldpie 2y ago
> Why aren't we seeing more and more L3 chargers at gas stations? It's a good question. I don't know for certain, but my hypothesis would be because of what you and the OP said: > Destination charging is a thing. Drive somewhere, plug in, do what you came to do, and drive back with enough charge to get home. > if you have a garage or driveway then your electric car ownership will be a dream where you truly stop thinking about range No one goes to a gas station to hang out, you know? Instead you plug in at work, or the mall, or the restaurant, or just don't bother until you get home. It doesn't make sense to spend your 20+ minute charge time at a gas station.
- toomuchtodo 2y ago
  Tesla colocated Superchargers at grocery stores. You have to eat, right? First world problem is the car is done charging before I'm done shopping! To your point, put chargers at existing locations humans dwell at, the only other use case is highway travel chargers. There are ~110k gas stations left in the US, and I'll argue many of those will not be needed going forward as mobility electrifies [1] [2] [3]. [1] https://www.axios.com/2022/07/15/gas-stations-prices-closing https://www.axios.com/2022/07/15/gas-stations-prices-closing [2] https://enpowered.com/the-death-of-gas-stations-will-be-far-sooner-than-you-think/ https://enpowered.com/the-death-of-gas-stations-will-be-far-... [3] https://www.urbanismnext.org/resources/americas-gas-stations-are-running-out-of-time https://www.urbanismnext.org/resources/americas-gas-stations...
  - JshWright 2y ago
    There are a bunch of reasons why it wouldn't be worth implementing, but it would be cool if you could tell it how long you thought you would be in the store and it could adjust the charging time to be a bit gentler on the battery. I'm sure it wouldn't get used much (unless the UI was very front and center, and maybe recommended a time based on your previous stops at that charger), and Tesla would be somewhat disincentivized to build it anyway as their goal is to get as many unique cars through the charger as possible, but it would still be neat...
    - toomuchtodo 2y ago
      I'm unsure if there is much difference between charging at 50kw vs 150-200kw wrt long term battery longevity (I have primarily supercharged my 100D Model S for ~140k miles, and only experience ~7% pack degradation), although I do pick the V2/150kw chargers to let folks potentially under a time crunch use the V2/250kw chargers (when the station has both due to legacy posts that were expanded, which is common in the area I currently frequent). Also, better to turn the stalls over faster considering amortized capex costs (charging fast = less stalls needed). We're somewhat spoiled that aggressive volumes of fast DC charging is immaterial on battery pack health in well engineered battery packs, as well as the rate of improvement in battery technology. Don't worry too much about it, enjoy a better UX and simply charge when convenient. Batteries are only going to keep getting better. https://cleantechnica.com/2024/07/14/another-tesla-with-over-400000-miles-on-one-battery/ https://cleantechnica.com/2024/07/14/another-tesla-with-over... ("Another Tesla With Over 400,000 Miles On One Battery")
    - bryanlarsen 2y ago
      There are enough stories of taxi/uber drivers who basically only charge at superchargers getting 200,000+ miles out of their Tesla battery that slowing down charge speed to optimize battery life is a minor optimization at best. What would be really nice is a better way of sharing a charger after you're done charging. My experience is that a Tesla supercharger is often too fast. On a road trip charging stops usually coincide with meals, but a charge takes less time than a nice meal does. The charge is done and idle fees start accumulating when you're halfway through the meal. It's rude to others waiting for the charger to leave it there plugged in. It'd be awesome if there was a way to have two plugs per charger, and a big green light to indicate that the first car is done charging so that anybody pulling into the second stall would get a full speed charge.
- mastax 2y ago
  I don’t have an electric car but I watched a video of an owner on YouTube doing a roadtrip and he complained when the chargers were located at places more different from gas stations. Convenience stores are… convenient. Walmarts are almost as good. Hotel parking lots offer basically no amenities to non-guests though.
  - coldpie 2y ago
    Indeed. It'll be interesting to watch the charging ecosystem evolve. I have no idea where we'll end up. Turn gas stations into... little EV charging stations with mini-attractions? Dunno!
  - m463 2y ago
    > he complained when the chargers were located at places more different from gas stations. I'm not sure I understand, was he complaining when they were in a parking lot, but off a road? Personally, I see gas stations as convenient to the road, but you are also there for a short time. If you are charging for a non-trivial amount of time, getting out and doing something else is very nice. Charging while grocery shopping is something I do frequently.
- spiffytech 2y ago
  In my area (a major metro area) there are a bunch of chargers in absolute terms, but very rarely within walking distance of any of my usual destinations. PlugShare shows 18 total charging stations within a 10 minute drive of my home (only one DCFS). There are none near my grocery store, gym, doctor's office, etc. And I WFH. If I wasn't able to install a charger at my home, I would be going out of my way for DCFS a couple of times a week and making up ways to kill time. I hope it'll be different someday, but today is not that day. Or, as the quote goes, "the future has arrived, it's just not evenly distributed yet".
dangus 2y ago
Which makes America perfect for EVs. Over half of Americans live in single family homes. Well, almost perfect. Being on 110V in residences is a downside.
- lotsofpulp 2y ago
  American gas (petrol) prices being pretty low makes it a questionable calculation for most people. Including the car’s depreciation, an EV does not always pencil out versus a gas hybrid unless you do a lot of driving. Plus a lot of states charge a much higher annual tax for EVs compared to gas hybrids.
  - atonse 2y ago
    It's still way way way cheaper to "fill" an EV tank in the US because the corresponding electricity charges are also low (in many regions). It's something like $5-7 to fully charge an EV from 0 where I am (Washington DC suburbs), vs about $50 to fill a tank of gas. I recently spoke to a cabbie in Madrid that was driving a Tesla, and he said the economics were a no-brainer. He charges at home overnight and once mid-day and his monthly electricity bill was 130 euros. Before that, he was spending over 1,000 euros a month on gas. That more than makes up for the additional initial cost of having an EV.
    - lotsofpulp 2y ago
      >It's something like $5-7 to fully charge an EV from 0 where I am (Washington DC suburbs), vs about $50 to fill a tank of gas. If you drive 5k to 10k miles per year though, a hybrid Camry or Prius or equivalent is still going to be cheaper per mile over 20 years compared to an EV due to the huge depreciation in the EV due to battery replacement cost. Even a RAV4 Prime is probably cheaper.
    - jjav 2y ago
      > the corresponding electricity charges are also low (in many regions) Those of us lucky enough to have PG&E in California have a different calculation though. As of my latest bill they charge 88c/kWh and I heard they just approved yet another rate increase. We'll probably be paying $1/kWh pretty soon. It's a bit cheaper after midnight, but still more expensive than nearly everywhere.
alephnerd 2y ago
> I don't understand why the oil companies haven't gotten on board Depends on the energy company. Some like BP, Chevron, and Idemitsu Kosan began investing fairly heavily in renewables and battery technology (eg. ownership in solar development, owning and licensing battery and charging IP, etc) for diversification reasons. Others did not, and don't want to end up paying competitors. Furthermore, gas stations are themselves just franchises so the franchisee might have to eat the cost of installation. Chevron owns Chargepoint so they were able to scale charging infra to their stations, but other competitors might not want to subsidize Chevron corporate and leave it to the franchise.
cduzz 2y ago
L3 charging requires a ton of very specific infrastructure. Around where I live tesla's got some co-generation going on near by where they've got natural gas -> fuel cell -> supercharger setups (bloom energy runs one and I forget the other). Absent that you need the power company to pipe in some serious power feeds and those aren't always convenient to trench into where you've already got a gas station.
lotsofpulp 2y ago
> I don't understand why the oil companies haven't gotten on board. Why aren't we seeing more and more L3 chargers at gas stations? Oil companies’ involvement with gas stations is only to the extent of selling their brand to the gas station operator. I don’t think I have ever heard of an oil company itself operating a gas station, I doubt they even own a single one.
- nashashmi 2y ago
  they also got into fear and panic mode thinking that their investments in oil will be at risk. Many of them have existing oil infrastructure that they want to put value on. If they are to become obsolete, their net worth and buying power will be threatened. And so they go into fear/panic. The koch brothers.
- ahoyhoy 2y ago
  Oil companies own and operate many, many gas stations, and are actively adding L3 chargers to them.
- atonse 2y ago
  No but they can get into electricity generation and sell it wholesale (by the kilowatt or megawatt hour) to gas stations like they do with liquid gasoline. They have the massive amounts of money to make those investments and sell them to gas stations the same way they do now.
SketchySeaBeast 2y ago
I have a garage, and I struggle with thinking an electric car would be a dream. It's an old detached garage and doesn't have the electrical infrastructure required to provide fast charging. It seems like it'd be another $10k worth of expenses (I assume something like that for the trenching and installation) on top of the car.
- julian55 2y ago
  Do you need fast charging at home? We just charge our electric car overnight from a normal UK 240V 13A socket in our garage.
  - JshWright 2y ago
    240V/13A is significantly more power than the standard outlets in the US (120V/15A), but even here in the US I find a level 1 charger is more than sufficient to cover my daily driving by charging overnight.
  - quickthrowman 2y ago
    That’s twice as much power as a US 120V 15A receptacle .8*120*15 = 1440w vs 230*13 = 2990w You can only use 80% of a load on a breaker in the US, AFAIK UK receptacles are fused which allows using 100% of the listed device ampacity instead of 80%. I could be wrong about that last part though.
    - julian55 2y ago
      In the UK there is usually a fuse in the plug, the fuse value varies according to the appliance up to a max of 13A.
- itishappy 2y ago
  I'd argue most users don't need fast charging at home. 8 hours of level 1 charging gets you 30-50 miles of range, which is pretty much exactly the average daily commute. You can double that range by charging at work (which can be level 1 too). For rare longer trips, public fast charging infrastructure is quite convenient.
pjc50 2y ago
UK motorway service stations seem to have chargers, and to be expanding them in response to demand. Last time I was in one I saw the two occupied chargers next to a whole row of a dozen under-construction chargers. I'm not sure what the cost of those is, though.
Reason077 2y ago
> "Why aren't we seeing more and more L3 chargers at gas stations?" There are many chargers at gas ("petrol") stations in the UK. There are even a few stations that have been completely converted, with the pumps removed and replaced with chargers only. For example, Shell Fulham in London: https://find.shell.com/gb/fuel/10018937-shell-recharge-waitrose-fulham/ https://find.shell.com/gb/fuel/10018937-shell-recharge-waitr... Installing high-power charging does depend on having a suitable grid connection available, of course. For some gas station locations, getting enough power to the site might be impractical or uneconomic.
- maccard 2y ago
  Bear in mind that particular example is in one of the most expensive places in the UK to live, and is pretty much surrounded by the most expensive neighbourhoods in the country.
  - Reason077 2y ago
    Indeed, but it’s an example of what will gradually happen everywhere as more of the vehicle fleet is electrified. Gas stations will have to adapt by installing chargers, as eventually there just won’t be enough combustion vehicles around to keep them in business.
jillesvangurp 2y ago
> My big question is, I don't understand why the oil companies haven't gotten on board. Why aren't we seeing more and more L3 chargers at gas stations? That will come. This is already happening in the EU. The US is just lagging the rest of the world a bit here with EV adoption and charging infrastructure. But if you think about it: what happens when you remove 40% of the demand for petrol and diesel from the market? Because that's what happens when those driving the most and the furthest switch to electric: they stop buying lots of petrol and diesel. And early adopters tend to be the ones driving the most. So, demand takes a big hit fairy early in the transition. What happens is very simple: petrol and diesel stations start losing a lot of business. Until they realize that they have the perfect locations for charging and that people will want to buy from their shops and restaurants while they are charging. So, of course they are going to adapt in a hurry and invest in charging infrastructure as this starts happening. Long term, petrol and diesel are going to be a minor side hustle for rapid charging stations where most of the revenues come from people waiting for their vehicles to charge buying snacks, refreshments, and other stuff.
- mikestew 2y ago
  Even when I worked as full-service attendant at a gas station forty years ago (yes, I’m the last of them), the owner told me there was little money in gas sales, the profit came from the other stuff sold. Enough so that we got a commission on stuff like a quart of oil. And full-serve gas was priced such that it paid my meager wages. My point being, there probably never was a lot of margin on fuel. Which is why I’m surprised that more convenience stores with fuel aren’t putting in chargers because now you’ve got a captive audience for 20 minutes. They’re getting there, though, as I see AM/PM stores with EVGo chargers now in the PNW. And at $0.45/kWh versus $0.11 at home, there is profit to be made on electrons, I imagine.
  - atonse 2y ago
    I heard the same from a close friend whose family ran 3-4 gas stations. She said they essentially broke even on gas (something like 1-3 cents of profit per gallon), but made all their money on items inside (she/her family was Asian, so they made a killing cuz they had an asian-styled buffet in their gas station in a small town in Indiana, the only one of its kind for miles)
tzs 2y ago
> My big question is, I don't understand why the oil companies haven't gotten on board. Why aren't we seeing more and more L3 chargers at gas stations? I'd guess that in the US one factor might be that a large fraction of gas stations are also convenience stores and most of them make more money from the convenience store side of the business than from the gas side of the business. The convenience store has two kinds of customers. One is people who are there to get gas but also pick up something in the convenience store. The other is people who come specifically for the convenience store. Space outside not used for cars that are at the gas pumps is usually used for parking for the people who are there for the convenience store. If they add EV chargers that are separate from the pumps they will probably have to reduce the parking space for convenience store customers. So they are replacing spots currently used by people who are there for a usually short visit to the convenience store with spots for people who are there to charge EVs. Even if 100% of EV charging customers also use the convenience store it still reduces convenience store volume because they occupy a spot longer than the people who are there just to use the convenience store. Plus there will be people who are there just to charge and will not use the convenience store. If they add the EV chargers where the gas pumps are, then the EV charging customers are replacing gas buying customers and so again their is a reduction in turnover because EV charging is slower. Because EV charging is slower I'd guess there is a larger chance that an EV charging customer will decide to also use the convenience store than there is that an gas customer will, so that might compensate some for the lower turnover but I'd guess that it would still be a net reduction in convenience store business.

by atonse 2y ago

blowfish721 2y ago

Germany seems to be forcing this through law in a few years. https://www.heise.de/en/news/Elektroautos-Bundesregierung-beschliesst-Ladesaeulenpflicht-fuer-Tankstellen-9740583.html https://www.heise.de/en/news/Elektroautos-Bundesregierung-be...

coldpie 2y ago

> Why aren't we seeing more and more L3 chargers at gas stations? It's a good question. I don't know for certain, but my hypothesis would be because of what you and the OP said: > Destination charging is a thing. Drive somewhere, plug in, do what you came to do, and drive back with enough charge to get home. > if you have a garage or driveway then your electric car ownership will be a dream where you truly stop thinking about range No one goes to a gas station to hang out, you know? Instead you plug in at work, or the mall, or the restaurant, or just don't bother until you get home. It doesn't make sense to spend your 20+ minute charge time at a gas station.

toomuchtodo 2y ago
Tesla colocated Superchargers at grocery stores. You have to eat, right? First world problem is the car is done charging before I'm done shopping! To your point, put chargers at existing locations humans dwell at, the only other use case is highway travel chargers. There are ~110k gas stations left in the US, and I'll argue many of those will not be needed going forward as mobility electrifies [1] [2] [3]. [1] https://www.axios.com/2022/07/15/gas-stations-prices-closing https://www.axios.com/2022/07/15/gas-stations-prices-closing [2] https://enpowered.com/the-death-of-gas-stations-will-be-far-sooner-than-you-think/ https://enpowered.com/the-death-of-gas-stations-will-be-far-... [3] https://www.urbanismnext.org/resources/americas-gas-stations-are-running-out-of-time https://www.urbanismnext.org/resources/americas-gas-stations...
- JshWright 2y ago
  There are a bunch of reasons why it wouldn't be worth implementing, but it would be cool if you could tell it how long you thought you would be in the store and it could adjust the charging time to be a bit gentler on the battery. I'm sure it wouldn't get used much (unless the UI was very front and center, and maybe recommended a time based on your previous stops at that charger), and Tesla would be somewhat disincentivized to build it anyway as their goal is to get as many unique cars through the charger as possible, but it would still be neat...
  - toomuchtodo 2y ago
    I'm unsure if there is much difference between charging at 50kw vs 150-200kw wrt long term battery longevity (I have primarily supercharged my 100D Model S for ~140k miles, and only experience ~7% pack degradation), although I do pick the V2/150kw chargers to let folks potentially under a time crunch use the V2/250kw chargers (when the station has both due to legacy posts that were expanded, which is common in the area I currently frequent). Also, better to turn the stalls over faster considering amortized capex costs (charging fast = less stalls needed). We're somewhat spoiled that aggressive volumes of fast DC charging is immaterial on battery pack health in well engineered battery packs, as well as the rate of improvement in battery technology. Don't worry too much about it, enjoy a better UX and simply charge when convenient. Batteries are only going to keep getting better. https://cleantechnica.com/2024/07/14/another-tesla-with-over-400000-miles-on-one-battery/ https://cleantechnica.com/2024/07/14/another-tesla-with-over... ("Another Tesla With Over 400,000 Miles On One Battery")
  - bryanlarsen 2y ago
    There are enough stories of taxi/uber drivers who basically only charge at superchargers getting 200,000+ miles out of their Tesla battery that slowing down charge speed to optimize battery life is a minor optimization at best. What would be really nice is a better way of sharing a charger after you're done charging. My experience is that a Tesla supercharger is often too fast. On a road trip charging stops usually coincide with meals, but a charge takes less time than a nice meal does. The charge is done and idle fees start accumulating when you're halfway through the meal. It's rude to others waiting for the charger to leave it there plugged in. It'd be awesome if there was a way to have two plugs per charger, and a big green light to indicate that the first car is done charging so that anybody pulling into the second stall would get a full speed charge.
mastax 2y ago
I don’t have an electric car but I watched a video of an owner on YouTube doing a roadtrip and he complained when the chargers were located at places more different from gas stations. Convenience stores are… convenient. Walmarts are almost as good. Hotel parking lots offer basically no amenities to non-guests though.
- coldpie 2y ago
  Indeed. It'll be interesting to watch the charging ecosystem evolve. I have no idea where we'll end up. Turn gas stations into... little EV charging stations with mini-attractions? Dunno!
- m463 2y ago
  > he complained when the chargers were located at places more different from gas stations. I'm not sure I understand, was he complaining when they were in a parking lot, but off a road? Personally, I see gas stations as convenient to the road, but you are also there for a short time. If you are charging for a non-trivial amount of time, getting out and doing something else is very nice. Charging while grocery shopping is something I do frequently.
spiffytech 2y ago
In my area (a major metro area) there are a bunch of chargers in absolute terms, but very rarely within walking distance of any of my usual destinations. PlugShare shows 18 total charging stations within a 10 minute drive of my home (only one DCFS). There are none near my grocery store, gym, doctor's office, etc. And I WFH. If I wasn't able to install a charger at my home, I would be going out of my way for DCFS a couple of times a week and making up ways to kill time. I hope it'll be different someday, but today is not that day. Or, as the quote goes, "the future has arrived, it's just not evenly distributed yet".

dangus 2y ago

Which makes America perfect for EVs. Over half of Americans live in single family homes. Well, almost perfect. Being on 110V in residences is a downside.

lotsofpulp 2y ago
American gas (petrol) prices being pretty low makes it a questionable calculation for most people. Including the car’s depreciation, an EV does not always pencil out versus a gas hybrid unless you do a lot of driving. Plus a lot of states charge a much higher annual tax for EVs compared to gas hybrids.
- atonse 2y ago
  It's still way way way cheaper to "fill" an EV tank in the US because the corresponding electricity charges are also low (in many regions). It's something like $5-7 to fully charge an EV from 0 where I am (Washington DC suburbs), vs about $50 to fill a tank of gas. I recently spoke to a cabbie in Madrid that was driving a Tesla, and he said the economics were a no-brainer. He charges at home overnight and once mid-day and his monthly electricity bill was 130 euros. Before that, he was spending over 1,000 euros a month on gas. That more than makes up for the additional initial cost of having an EV.
  - lotsofpulp 2y ago
    >It's something like $5-7 to fully charge an EV from 0 where I am (Washington DC suburbs), vs about $50 to fill a tank of gas. If you drive 5k to 10k miles per year though, a hybrid Camry or Prius or equivalent is still going to be cheaper per mile over 20 years compared to an EV due to the huge depreciation in the EV due to battery replacement cost. Even a RAV4 Prime is probably cheaper.
  - jjav 2y ago
    > the corresponding electricity charges are also low (in many regions) Those of us lucky enough to have PG&E in California have a different calculation though. As of my latest bill they charge 88c/kWh and I heard they just approved yet another rate increase. We'll probably be paying $1/kWh pretty soon. It's a bit cheaper after midnight, but still more expensive than nearly everywhere.

alephnerd 2y ago

> I don't understand why the oil companies haven't gotten on board Depends on the energy company. Some like BP, Chevron, and Idemitsu Kosan began investing fairly heavily in renewables and battery technology (eg. ownership in solar development, owning and licensing battery and charging IP, etc) for diversification reasons. Others did not, and don't want to end up paying competitors. Furthermore, gas stations are themselves just franchises so the franchisee might have to eat the cost of installation. Chevron owns Chargepoint so they were able to scale charging infra to their stations, but other competitors might not want to subsidize Chevron corporate and leave it to the franchise.

cduzz 2y ago

L3 charging requires a ton of very specific infrastructure. Around where I live tesla's got some co-generation going on near by where they've got natural gas -> fuel cell -> supercharger setups (bloom energy runs one and I forget the other). Absent that you need the power company to pipe in some serious power feeds and those aren't always convenient to trench into where you've already got a gas station.

lotsofpulp 2y ago

> I don't understand why the oil companies haven't gotten on board. Why aren't we seeing more and more L3 chargers at gas stations? Oil companies’ involvement with gas stations is only to the extent of selling their brand to the gas station operator. I don’t think I have ever heard of an oil company itself operating a gas station, I doubt they even own a single one.

nashashmi 2y ago
they also got into fear and panic mode thinking that their investments in oil will be at risk. Many of them have existing oil infrastructure that they want to put value on. If they are to become obsolete, their net worth and buying power will be threatened. And so they go into fear/panic. The koch brothers.
ahoyhoy 2y ago
Oil companies own and operate many, many gas stations, and are actively adding L3 chargers to them.
atonse 2y ago
No but they can get into electricity generation and sell it wholesale (by the kilowatt or megawatt hour) to gas stations like they do with liquid gasoline. They have the massive amounts of money to make those investments and sell them to gas stations the same way they do now.

SketchySeaBeast 2y ago

I have a garage, and I struggle with thinking an electric car would be a dream. It's an old detached garage and doesn't have the electrical infrastructure required to provide fast charging. It seems like it'd be another $10k worth of expenses (I assume something like that for the trenching and installation) on top of the car.

julian55 2y ago
Do you need fast charging at home? We just charge our electric car overnight from a normal UK 240V 13A socket in our garage.
- JshWright 2y ago
  240V/13A is significantly more power than the standard outlets in the US (120V/15A), but even here in the US I find a level 1 charger is more than sufficient to cover my daily driving by charging overnight.
- quickthrowman 2y ago
  That’s twice as much power as a US 120V 15A receptacle .8*120*15 = 1440w vs 230*13 = 2990w You can only use 80% of a load on a breaker in the US, AFAIK UK receptacles are fused which allows using 100% of the listed device ampacity instead of 80%. I could be wrong about that last part though.
  - julian55 2y ago
    In the UK there is usually a fuse in the plug, the fuse value varies according to the appliance up to a max of 13A.
itishappy 2y ago
I'd argue most users don't need fast charging at home. 8 hours of level 1 charging gets you 30-50 miles of range, which is pretty much exactly the average daily commute. You can double that range by charging at work (which can be level 1 too). For rare longer trips, public fast charging infrastructure is quite convenient.

pjc50 2y ago

UK motorway service stations seem to have chargers, and to be expanding them in response to demand. Last time I was in one I saw the two occupied chargers next to a whole row of a dozen under-construction chargers. I'm not sure what the cost of those is, though.

Reason077 2y ago

> "Why aren't we seeing more and more L3 chargers at gas stations?" There are many chargers at gas ("petrol") stations in the UK. There are even a few stations that have been completely converted, with the pumps removed and replaced with chargers only. For example, Shell Fulham in London: https://find.shell.com/gb/fuel/10018937-shell-recharge-waitrose-fulham/ https://find.shell.com/gb/fuel/10018937-shell-recharge-waitr... Installing high-power charging does depend on having a suitable grid connection available, of course. For some gas station locations, getting enough power to the site might be impractical or uneconomic.

maccard 2y ago
Bear in mind that particular example is in one of the most expensive places in the UK to live, and is pretty much surrounded by the most expensive neighbourhoods in the country.
- Reason077 2y ago
  Indeed, but it’s an example of what will gradually happen everywhere as more of the vehicle fleet is electrified. Gas stations will have to adapt by installing chargers, as eventually there just won’t be enough combustion vehicles around to keep them in business.

jillesvangurp 2y ago

> My big question is, I don't understand why the oil companies haven't gotten on board. Why aren't we seeing more and more L3 chargers at gas stations? That will come. This is already happening in the EU. The US is just lagging the rest of the world a bit here with EV adoption and charging infrastructure. But if you think about it: what happens when you remove 40% of the demand for petrol and diesel from the market? Because that's what happens when those driving the most and the furthest switch to electric: they stop buying lots of petrol and diesel. And early adopters tend to be the ones driving the most. So, demand takes a big hit fairy early in the transition. What happens is very simple: petrol and diesel stations start losing a lot of business. Until they realize that they have the perfect locations for charging and that people will want to buy from their shops and restaurants while they are charging. So, of course they are going to adapt in a hurry and invest in charging infrastructure as this starts happening. Long term, petrol and diesel are going to be a minor side hustle for rapid charging stations where most of the revenues come from people waiting for their vehicles to charge buying snacks, refreshments, and other stuff.

mikestew 2y ago
Even when I worked as full-service attendant at a gas station forty years ago (yes, I’m the last of them), the owner told me there was little money in gas sales, the profit came from the other stuff sold. Enough so that we got a commission on stuff like a quart of oil. And full-serve gas was priced such that it paid my meager wages. My point being, there probably never was a lot of margin on fuel. Which is why I’m surprised that more convenience stores with fuel aren’t putting in chargers because now you’ve got a captive audience for 20 minutes. They’re getting there, though, as I see AM/PM stores with EVGo chargers now in the PNW. And at $0.45/kWh versus $0.11 at home, there is profit to be made on electrons, I imagine.
- atonse 2y ago
  I heard the same from a close friend whose family ran 3-4 gas stations. She said they essentially broke even on gas (something like 1-3 cents of profit per gallon), but made all their money on items inside (she/her family was Asian, so they made a killing cuz they had an asian-styled buffet in their gas station in a small town in Indiana, the only one of its kind for miles)

tzs 2y ago

> My big question is, I don't understand why the oil companies haven't gotten on board. Why aren't we seeing more and more L3 chargers at gas stations? I'd guess that in the US one factor might be that a large fraction of gas stations are also convenience stores and most of them make more money from the convenience store side of the business than from the gas side of the business. The convenience store has two kinds of customers. One is people who are there to get gas but also pick up something in the convenience store. The other is people who come specifically for the convenience store. Space outside not used for cars that are at the gas pumps is usually used for parking for the people who are there for the convenience store. If they add EV chargers that are separate from the pumps they will probably have to reduce the parking space for convenience store customers. So they are replacing spots currently used by people who are there for a usually short visit to the convenience store with spots for people who are there to charge EVs. Even if 100% of EV charging customers also use the convenience store it still reduces convenience store volume because they occupy a spot longer than the people who are there just to use the convenience store. Plus there will be people who are there just to charge and will not use the convenience store. If they add the EV chargers where the gas pumps are, then the EV charging customers are replacing gas buying customers and so again their is a reduction in turnover because EV charging is slower. Because EV charging is slower I'd guess there is a larger chance that an EV charging customer will decide to also use the convenience store than there is that an gas customer will, so that might compensate some for the lower turnover but I'd guess that it would still be a net reduction in convenience store business.