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> Whether you call that discrimination "racism" or "sparkling machine discrimination" does not matter. I believe it does: if you're calling racism anything fro

by rolisz 2y ago

> Whether you call that discrimination "racism" or "sparkling machine discrimination" does not matter. I believe it does: if you're calling racism anything from Hitler to someone who wants to be punctual [1], the word loses it's meaning and people will start arguing about degrees instead of harmful behaviors. [1] https://www.thompsoncoe.com/resources/myhrgenius/hr-tips/tip/are-attendance-policies-discriminatory/ https://www.thompsoncoe.com/resources/myhrgenius/hr-tips/tip...

ADeerAppeared 2y ago
The point is that it's a separate discussion, and that losing yourself in that discussion rather than adressing the material harm of the discrimination, is a problem. And I get it, the discussion is deeply alluring. There is a deep amount of nuance involved. Your point about punctuality is begging for a response about how "punctuality is racist" looks dumb on the surface but belies a deeper point about polychronic cultures that has a lot of legitimate merit to it. I'll refrain from giving you that full ramble lest I betray my original point, if you or a lurker wants it toss a reply and we can have a go. But note that your link uses a baity headline to grab your attention for a more nuanced point.
- mistermann 2y ago
  > Your point about punctuality is begging for a response about how "punctuality is racist" looks dumb on the surface but belies a deeper point about polychronic cultures that has a lot of legitimate merit to it. Two points: 1. I think this is indeed a very valid and important topic, that humans would benefit from (being able to[1]) take seriously (something along these lines, I am approximating, of course). 2. Your concern, at least in part, seems to be ~racism, and presumably that racism is unjustified, that the perceived underlying problems are imaginary. But then you mentioned culture. Culture exists, and is not very far removed from race. To be clear(!): this is not a promotion of delusional behavior, like: racism, culturalism, anti-racism, anti-culturalism, etc, I'm more so pointing out that "right thinking" on these matters is not correct, and that even the good people have heads full of silly and dangerous ideas. [1] Imho the real problem here is less that it isn't taken seriously than the much broader problem that humans seem essentially unable to control what they take seriously, or their "seriousness service". And this isn't the only service they essentially have no control over.
Hasu 2y ago
The article doesn't use the word "racist" or "racism", it says that a university enacted a policy of being more understanding about tardiness due to cultural differences. As someone who has never been in a meeting that started on time, usually due to white male managers who are bad at time management, I can understand this need to be tolerant of other cultures and their idiosyncrasies.
- 3np 2y ago
  > A little birdie (Twitter) pointed us to an interesting report regarding tardiness: it may be racist to expect employees to show up to work on time. The very first line of the article you are referring to.
  - Hasu 2y ago
    Okay, I was wrong, but the rest of the article discusses it normally and not with the rhetoric of an aggrieved hillbilly.
- rolisz 2y ago
  This link better? https://www.aei.org/op-eds/smithsonian-institution-explains-that-rationality-hard-work-are-racist/ https://www.aei.org/op-eds/smithsonian-institution-explains-...
  - ADeerAppeared 2y ago
    You're linking conservative think-tanks, not the original source from the smithsonian. If you'd look at the original infographic, it's about which norms and values are considered "default" in the US, inherited from (white) European values. With "Hard work" in specific: > Protestwant Work Ethic > * Hard work is the key to success > * Work before play > * "If you didn't meet your goals, you didn't work hard enough" And I'm sorry but the notion that these are human-invented norms and values, not "laws of the universe", is pretty fucking milquetoast. If you genuinely believe all failures at your job are the result of you not hustle-grinding hard enough, that not even a single element contributing to those failures has been out of your control, I have a bridge to sell you.

by rolisz 2y ago

ADeerAppeared 2y ago

The point is that it's a separate discussion, and that losing yourself in that discussion rather than adressing the material harm of the discrimination, is a problem. And I get it, the discussion is deeply alluring. There is a deep amount of nuance involved. Your point about punctuality is begging for a response about how "punctuality is racist" looks dumb on the surface but belies a deeper point about polychronic cultures that has a lot of legitimate merit to it. I'll refrain from giving you that full ramble lest I betray my original point, if you or a lurker wants it toss a reply and we can have a go. But note that your link uses a baity headline to grab your attention for a more nuanced point.

mistermann 2y ago
> Your point about punctuality is begging for a response about how "punctuality is racist" looks dumb on the surface but belies a deeper point about polychronic cultures that has a lot of legitimate merit to it. Two points: 1. I think this is indeed a very valid and important topic, that humans would benefit from (being able to[1]) take seriously (something along these lines, I am approximating, of course). 2. Your concern, at least in part, seems to be ~racism, and presumably that racism is unjustified, that the perceived underlying problems are imaginary. But then you mentioned culture. Culture exists, and is not very far removed from race. To be clear(!): this is not a promotion of delusional behavior, like: racism, culturalism, anti-racism, anti-culturalism, etc, I'm more so pointing out that "right thinking" on these matters is not correct, and that even the good people have heads full of silly and dangerous ideas. [1] Imho the real problem here is less that it isn't taken seriously than the much broader problem that humans seem essentially unable to control what they take seriously, or their "seriousness service". And this isn't the only service they essentially have no control over.

Hasu 2y ago

The article doesn't use the word "racist" or "racism", it says that a university enacted a policy of being more understanding about tardiness due to cultural differences. As someone who has never been in a meeting that started on time, usually due to white male managers who are bad at time management, I can understand this need to be tolerant of other cultures and their idiosyncrasies.

3np 2y ago
> A little birdie (Twitter) pointed us to an interesting report regarding tardiness: it may be racist to expect employees to show up to work on time. The very first line of the article you are referring to.
- Hasu 2y ago
  Okay, I was wrong, but the rest of the article discusses it normally and not with the rhetoric of an aggrieved hillbilly.
rolisz 2y ago
This link better? https://www.aei.org/op-eds/smithsonian-institution-explains-that-rationality-hard-work-are-racist/ https://www.aei.org/op-eds/smithsonian-institution-explains-...
- ADeerAppeared 2y ago
  You're linking conservative think-tanks, not the original source from the smithsonian. If you'd look at the original infographic, it's about which norms and values are considered "default" in the US, inherited from (white) European values. With "Hard work" in specific: > Protestwant Work Ethic > * Hard work is the key to success > * Work before play > * "If you didn't meet your goals, you didn't work hard enough" And I'm sorry but the notion that these are human-invented norms and values, not "laws of the universe", is pretty fucking milquetoast. If you genuinely believe all failures at your job are the result of you not hustle-grinding hard enough, that not even a single element contributing to those failures has been out of your control, I have a bridge to sell you.