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> What I am more interested in is the constant pressure on "safety risks" without anything that feels tangible to me so far. It's marketing. "Our AI is so powe

> What I am more interested in is the constant pressure on "safety risks" without anything that feels tangible to me so far. It's marketing. "Our AI is so powerful it's going to destroy the world" is just a way to market "Our AI is so powerful, give us money". The only people who sincerely care about "extinction risk" are the weird cultists. In the real world there's essentially zero chance of LLMs/Current-GenAI scaling up into AGI, nevermind AGI that'd be an extinction risk. (Yes, that phrasing is cheeky. AGI is a different kind of AI, not just specialized models made bigger. But we're only really trying to make them bigger, and not build general intelligence from the ground up) > I believe there is indeed risk using models that could be biased but I don't believe that is a new problem. It's the same old problem with most software, and it's similarly ignored. These models are biased, and attempts to control that bias are a shitshow. (As Google conveniently showed everyone) The problem is twofold: 1. This bias has severe real world impact. https://www.theverge.com/21298762/face-depixelizer-ai-machine-learning-tool-pulse-stylegan-obama-bias https://www.theverge.com/21298762/face-depixelizer-ai-machin... This is an article from 2020. We still haven't fundamentally addressed problems like this. These tools are still used by law enforcement and businesses making life-impacting decisions. 2. There's a widespread sentiment that "computers can't be racist". Whenever the bias of these systems hits the news or otherwise gets attention, they're often colloquially described as "racist" (or "sexist", etc), which triggers a swift counter from many techbros going "Um akshually it's not racist, it's merely skin tone reflectivity/it's merely the data set/etc"^[1] The argument effectively being, "It's not racism because it's not intended, it's merely sparkling discrimination". Yet, this is used as a thought terminating cliché. Nothing is done about the discrimination. Everyone just goes home. "It's not racist, we're not bad people, job done." Leaving the harm of the discrimination unsolved. This is not without cause. The only way to really "un-bias" these systems effectively would be to extensively curate the dataset and admit that the systems are of very limited capability and should not be used in (non-research) production environments. Both of these are "impossible". Curating the dataset for current generative-AI would take years and years. And admitting AI shouldn't be used for anything where the bias may have a material impact on the outcome kills the hype bubble. AI firms and developers don't want to address the problem, because the problem is really hard and annoying. But despite these costs, we should still do it. Because it is the morally correct thing to do. And because regulators are going to tear every company involved a new one if they don't. --- [1]: A footnote to pre-empt something: I don't care what side of this argument you're on. Whether you believe "racism" must include an element of intent or can be done by machines and systems without intent, there is discrimination with material harm on real people. Whether you call that discrimination "racism" or "sparkling machine discrimination" does not matter. The harm matters, and must be stopped.

rolisz 2y ago
> Whether you call that discrimination "racism" or "sparkling machine discrimination" does not matter. I believe it does: if you're calling racism anything from Hitler to someone who wants to be punctual [1], the word loses it's meaning and people will start arguing about degrees instead of harmful behaviors. [1] https://www.thompsoncoe.com/resources/myhrgenius/hr-tips/tip/are-attendance-policies-discriminatory/ https://www.thompsoncoe.com/resources/myhrgenius/hr-tips/tip...
- ADeerAppeared 2y ago
  The point is that it's a separate discussion, and that losing yourself in that discussion rather than adressing the material harm of the discrimination, is a problem. And I get it, the discussion is deeply alluring. There is a deep amount of nuance involved. Your point about punctuality is begging for a response about how "punctuality is racist" looks dumb on the surface but belies a deeper point about polychronic cultures that has a lot of legitimate merit to it. I'll refrain from giving you that full ramble lest I betray my original point, if you or a lurker wants it toss a reply and we can have a go. But note that your link uses a baity headline to grab your attention for a more nuanced point.
  - mistermann 2y ago
    > Your point about punctuality is begging for a response about how "punctuality is racist" looks dumb on the surface but belies a deeper point about polychronic cultures that has a lot of legitimate merit to it. Two points: 1. I think this is indeed a very valid and important topic, that humans would benefit from (being able to[1]) take seriously (something along these lines, I am approximating, of course). 2. Your concern, at least in part, seems to be ~racism, and presumably that racism is unjustified, that the perceived underlying problems are imaginary. But then you mentioned culture. Culture exists, and is not very far removed from race. To be clear(!): this is not a promotion of delusional behavior, like: racism, culturalism, anti-racism, anti-culturalism, etc, I'm more so pointing out that "right thinking" on these matters is not correct, and that even the good people have heads full of silly and dangerous ideas. [1] Imho the real problem here is less that it isn't taken seriously than the much broader problem that humans seem essentially unable to control what they take seriously, or their "seriousness service". And this isn't the only service they essentially have no control over.

rolisz 2y ago

> Whether you call that discrimination "racism" or "sparkling machine discrimination" does not matter. I believe it does: if you're calling racism anything from Hitler to someone who wants to be punctual [1], the word loses it's meaning and people will start arguing about degrees instead of harmful behaviors. [1] https://www.thompsoncoe.com/resources/myhrgenius/hr-tips/tip/are-attendance-policies-discriminatory/ https://www.thompsoncoe.com/resources/myhrgenius/hr-tips/tip...

ADeerAppeared 2y ago
The point is that it's a separate discussion, and that losing yourself in that discussion rather than adressing the material harm of the discrimination, is a problem. And I get it, the discussion is deeply alluring. There is a deep amount of nuance involved. Your point about punctuality is begging for a response about how "punctuality is racist" looks dumb on the surface but belies a deeper point about polychronic cultures that has a lot of legitimate merit to it. I'll refrain from giving you that full ramble lest I betray my original point, if you or a lurker wants it toss a reply and we can have a go. But note that your link uses a baity headline to grab your attention for a more nuanced point.
- mistermann 2y ago
  > Your point about punctuality is begging for a response about how "punctuality is racist" looks dumb on the surface but belies a deeper point about polychronic cultures that has a lot of legitimate merit to it. Two points: 1. I think this is indeed a very valid and important topic, that humans would benefit from (being able to[1]) take seriously (something along these lines, I am approximating, of course). 2. Your concern, at least in part, seems to be ~racism, and presumably that racism is unjustified, that the perceived underlying problems are imaginary. But then you mentioned culture. Culture exists, and is not very far removed from race. To be clear(!): this is not a promotion of delusional behavior, like: racism, culturalism, anti-racism, anti-culturalism, etc, I'm more so pointing out that "right thinking" on these matters is not correct, and that even the good people have heads full of silly and dangerous ideas. [1] Imho the real problem here is less that it isn't taken seriously than the much broader problem that humans seem essentially unable to control what they take seriously, or their "seriousness service". And this isn't the only service they essentially have no control over.