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It's the NY Times. The "journalists" are a couple of their cookie-cutter live-in-a-bubble West Coast employees. One gets the feeling they aspire to eventually w

It's the NY Times. The "journalists" are a couple of their cookie-cutter live-in-a-bubble West Coast employees. One gets the feeling they aspire to eventually write their own "Burn Book" (by Kara Swisher). NYT is riding on reputation fumes. Its BuzzFeed-y model makes TMZ more reputable. TMZ knows what it is. On the other hand the NYT pretends it still practices journalism. Sad really.

rbanffy 2y ago
> cookie-cutter live-in-a-bubble West Coast employees We should refrain from such labelling. We should engage in dialog, not label people and immediately reject whatever they have to say. This is not how democracy should work. > the NYT pretends it still practices journalism. I'm not sure why Fox News still has "News" in their name. Or why they ever had it.
- koolba 2y ago
  Fox News has a clear separation of hard news and opinion. While it hosts both type of content both online and on air, every show or article clearly falls into one of those buckets and they don’t hide it. Every NYT news article reeks of influence from its decidedly liberal editorial board. Can’t really blame them either as the balkanization of media means that’s exactly what their readers want anyway.
  - rbanffy 2y ago
    > that’s exactly what their readers want anyway News outlets should be held to a higher standard than that. Sadly, I don't see anything that can force that but the withdrawal of the legal protections the press has when it doesn't meet those standards.
    - chiefalchemist 2y ago
      In theory, they should be policing each other. The reality is, the standard for textbook definition journalism has all but disappeared. All the heavyweights (e.g., NYT, Fox, CNN, etc.) are overly biased, shameless, etc. What used to be journalism (in the USA) is now mostly TMZ meets BuzzFeed.
      - rbanffy 2y ago
        > In theory, they should be policing each other. They have no teeth. > What used to be journalism (in the USA) is now mostly TMZ meets BuzzFeed. You can't have a news organisation competing for the same attention with organisations focusing on entertainment (or hate-fuelled engagement farming) dressed up as news. This seems like a failure of the market to self-regulate.
  - taylodl 2y ago
    Fox News argued in court that they are not news and that it's unreasonable for anyone to construe them as a news outlet. So much for your "clear separation" of hard news and opinion - Fox News argued, in a court of law, that it's all opinion.
    - rbanffy 2y ago
      And I doubt those opinions are even sincere at this point.
    - coldtea 2y ago
      >Fox News argued in court that they are not news and that it's unreasonable for anyone to construe them as a news outlet Any outlet would do the same, if they could avoid fines that way. Doesn't mean anything.
      - taylodl 2y ago
        Speculative. It's also perjury if they were lying. Are you implying Fox News has no regard for the law whatsoever? And if that were true then why would anyone watch them? Besides, reality aligns with their assertion that they're not a news organization.
        rbanffy 2y ago
        Well... It's not impossible for them to report news in an accurate and unbiased form, so there is the possibility they could eventually be a news organisation.
- chiefalchemist 2y ago
  Labeling? Or an accurate description? They all think alike, and they surrounded themselves with the same. That's why we get the non-journalism we get. It's so bad they don't know how bad they are. As for Democracy, a healthy and proper Democracy requires a healthy and free-thinking Fouth Estate. We. Don't. Have. That. These cookie-cutter, bubble people fond of parroting narratives, yet self-proclaim as "journalists", are the root of the problem. In short, I was being kind. As for "news", Fox is not alone. Across the board, grade school level op-ed is passed off as journalism. They focus attention on irrelevant things that happen that don't qualify as news, yet there there are (sucking up eyeballs). Fox is not the only who practices this. Fwiw, my filter for "fake news" is not truth or not-truth, but also relevance and importance. When a prestigious news outlet is channeling TMZ, the question then becomes, what are they NOT reporting?
  - rbanffy 2y ago
    > As for Democracy, a healthy and proper Democracy requires a healthy and free-thinking Fouth Estate. Not necessarily. What a democracy needs is an informed electorate. If there are other ways to inform it, now would be a great time to try them.
- coldtea 2y ago
  >We should refrain from such labelling. We should engage in dialog, not label people and immediately reject whatever they have to say. This is not how democracy should work. Sure, how about they start first? E.g. by not labelling Musk or having knee-jerk partisan reactions? "But their labelling is just objective accurate depiction of things" Yeah, that's what the other side believes too...
  - rbanffy 2y ago
    > Yeah, that's what the other side believes too... And we can know for sure at least one side is wrong.

rbanffy 2y ago

> cookie-cutter live-in-a-bubble West Coast employees We should refrain from such labelling. We should engage in dialog, not label people and immediately reject whatever they have to say. This is not how democracy should work. > the NYT pretends it still practices journalism. I'm not sure why Fox News still has "News" in their name. Or why they ever had it.

koolba 2y ago
Fox News has a clear separation of hard news and opinion. While it hosts both type of content both online and on air, every show or article clearly falls into one of those buckets and they don’t hide it. Every NYT news article reeks of influence from its decidedly liberal editorial board. Can’t really blame them either as the balkanization of media means that’s exactly what their readers want anyway.
- rbanffy 2y ago
  > that’s exactly what their readers want anyway News outlets should be held to a higher standard than that. Sadly, I don't see anything that can force that but the withdrawal of the legal protections the press has when it doesn't meet those standards.
  - chiefalchemist 2y ago
    In theory, they should be policing each other. The reality is, the standard for textbook definition journalism has all but disappeared. All the heavyweights (e.g., NYT, Fox, CNN, etc.) are overly biased, shameless, etc. What used to be journalism (in the USA) is now mostly TMZ meets BuzzFeed.
    - rbanffy 2y ago
      > In theory, they should be policing each other. They have no teeth. > What used to be journalism (in the USA) is now mostly TMZ meets BuzzFeed. You can't have a news organisation competing for the same attention with organisations focusing on entertainment (or hate-fuelled engagement farming) dressed up as news. This seems like a failure of the market to self-regulate.
- taylodl 2y ago
  Fox News argued in court that they are not news and that it's unreasonable for anyone to construe them as a news outlet. So much for your "clear separation" of hard news and opinion - Fox News argued, in a court of law, that it's all opinion.
  - rbanffy 2y ago
    And I doubt those opinions are even sincere at this point.
  - coldtea 2y ago
    >Fox News argued in court that they are not news and that it's unreasonable for anyone to construe them as a news outlet Any outlet would do the same, if they could avoid fines that way. Doesn't mean anything.
    - taylodl 2y ago
      Speculative. It's also perjury if they were lying. Are you implying Fox News has no regard for the law whatsoever? And if that were true then why would anyone watch them? Besides, reality aligns with their assertion that they're not a news organization.
      - rbanffy 2y ago
        Well... It's not impossible for them to report news in an accurate and unbiased form, so there is the possibility they could eventually be a news organisation.
chiefalchemist 2y ago
Labeling? Or an accurate description? They all think alike, and they surrounded themselves with the same. That's why we get the non-journalism we get. It's so bad they don't know how bad they are. As for Democracy, a healthy and proper Democracy requires a healthy and free-thinking Fouth Estate. We. Don't. Have. That. These cookie-cutter, bubble people fond of parroting narratives, yet self-proclaim as "journalists", are the root of the problem. In short, I was being kind. As for "news", Fox is not alone. Across the board, grade school level op-ed is passed off as journalism. They focus attention on irrelevant things that happen that don't qualify as news, yet there there are (sucking up eyeballs). Fox is not the only who practices this. Fwiw, my filter for "fake news" is not truth or not-truth, but also relevance and importance. When a prestigious news outlet is channeling TMZ, the question then becomes, what are they NOT reporting?
- rbanffy 2y ago
  > As for Democracy, a healthy and proper Democracy requires a healthy and free-thinking Fouth Estate. Not necessarily. What a democracy needs is an informed electorate. If there are other ways to inform it, now would be a great time to try them.
coldtea 2y ago
>We should refrain from such labelling. We should engage in dialog, not label people and immediately reject whatever they have to say. This is not how democracy should work. Sure, how about they start first? E.g. by not labelling Musk or having knee-jerk partisan reactions? "But their labelling is just objective accurate depiction of things" Yeah, that's what the other side believes too...
- rbanffy 2y ago
  > Yeah, that's what the other side believes too... And we can know for sure at least one side is wrong.