6 ms·

The effect of daily usage of Mouthwash on the oropharyngeal microbiome

61 points by _glass 2y ago

ggm 2y ago
Conclusions: it's bad. You get the opportunistic bacterial types associated with cancers
- atlintots 2y ago
  Cheers, saved me some time.
- kjkjadksj 2y ago
  Are these bacteria causal or merely associated?
freilanzer 2y ago
Does Listerine contain alcohol?
- boesboes 2y ago
  I think so yes
- derbOac 2y ago
  Yes, in the article they contrast alcohol and fluoride rinses, citing evidence fluoride rinses don't seem to result in notable microbiotic changes in the same way. They also cite similar findings as theirs in research on alcohol use. The article is here: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/376202105_The_effect_of_daily_usage_of_Listerine_Cool_Mint_mouthwash_on_the_oropharyngeal_microbiome/fulltext/656e0635b832b6599df29240/The-effect-of-daily-usage-of-Listerine-Cool-Mint-mouthwash-on-the-oropharyngeal-microbiome.pdf https://www.researchgate.net/publication/376202105_The_effec...
- andrewstuart 2y ago
  Alcohol based mouthwash should be banned, it certainly is in some countries.
  - blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
    Why? It has its benefits too. For example it can reduce viral load in the mouth, reducing the risk of COVID transmission for example. I think people can make their choice as to what product they want to use and what tradeoffs they are okay with.
    - whatisthiseven 2y ago
      Do you have any papers or studies showing it can reduce transmission of any disease? Covid lives in the throat and lungs so I am not sure how a mouth rinse could do anything. Similarly for many other common colds and the flu.
      - blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
        I did a quick search and there are numerous studies that come up. I haven’t analyzed them myself, but it seems like there is a lot of evidence for this (example https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8956107/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8956107/). I also found various things written about covid living in the mouth and playing a role in transmission.
    - andrewstuart 2y ago
      >> Why? Alcohol is suspected to be carcinogenic. https://drugfree.org/drug-and-alcohol-news/australian-study-links-alcohol-containing-mouthwash-to-cancer/ https://drugfree.org/drug-and-alcohol-news/australian-study-... https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/alcohol-based-mouthwash-may-disrupt-oral-microbiome-leading-to-gum-disease-and-certain-cancers https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/alcohol-based-mout...
      - Suppafly 2y ago
boesboes 2y ago
Reminds me of the time the national health something announced in the news it recommended avoiding anti-microbal cleaning products for general use as only the strongest & worst bacteria survive and then get to breed. Immediately followed by a commercial for Detol....
Always42 2y ago
In the past i have struggled with having canker sores. After much googling l read there is an ingredient called sls that's in most toothpastes and it can cause canker sores in some people. I use sls free toothpaste and now i'm good. Less is more
- robbles 2y ago
  What brand of toothpaste do you use for this? I often struggle to find a toothpaste that's SLS-free but still has fluoride.
  - Bluescreenbuddy 2y ago
    Burst - https://burstoralcare.com/products/toothpaste-fluoride https://burstoralcare.com/products/toothpaste-fluoride Also Native has one too.
  - Gregordinary 2y ago
    If you don't mind a baking soda toothpaste, then another option is Trader Joe's. They made a baking soda & fluoride toothpaste that is SLS free. Been using it for a number of years now... Though it's been briefly discontinued and is slated to be back later this year.
  - redfern314 2y ago
    Also see Hello toothpaste (not affiliated) which has fluoride but not SLS: https://www.hello-products.com/products/naturally-whitening-toothpaste https://www.hello-products.com/products/naturally-whitening-... Same problem for me, constant canker sores. Switching to Hello hasn't totally eliminated them, but it has reduced them.
  - Suppafly 2y ago
    Sensodyne is one that's readily available at most stores.
- hooverd 2y ago
  Hmm, I wonder if putting surfectants in everything might have negative consequences.
thisislife2 2y ago
Interesting. See also Mouthwash use could inhibit benefits of exercise - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34855194 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34855194
hooverd 2y ago
I wonder if xylitol mouthwashes fare better?
mgh2 2y ago
> Streptococcus was the most abundant genus in most samples (n = 103, 61.7 %) So total sample size is 162: small but sufficient, should be replicated and scaled.
reducesuffering 2y ago
I'd recommend clove tea as a healthier mouth wash with an old history to it https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10036978/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10036978/
megous 2y ago
Not really a representative popoulation.
johng 2y ago
I've been using TheraBreath for the past 6 months. They have a ton of different versions now, when I started it they only had one. I can only assume it's becoming quite popular... how would this stuff stack up? I really like TheraBreath.. no more burning when you use it.

61 points by _glass 2y ago

ggm 2y ago

Conclusions: it's bad. You get the opportunistic bacterial types associated with cancers

atlintots 2y ago
Cheers, saved me some time.
kjkjadksj 2y ago
Are these bacteria causal or merely associated?

freilanzer 2y ago

Does Listerine contain alcohol?

boesboes 2y ago
I think so yes
derbOac 2y ago
Yes, in the article they contrast alcohol and fluoride rinses, citing evidence fluoride rinses don't seem to result in notable microbiotic changes in the same way. They also cite similar findings as theirs in research on alcohol use. The article is here: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/376202105_The_effect_of_daily_usage_of_Listerine_Cool_Mint_mouthwash_on_the_oropharyngeal_microbiome/fulltext/656e0635b832b6599df29240/The-effect-of-daily-usage-of-Listerine-Cool-Mint-mouthwash-on-the-oropharyngeal-microbiome.pdf https://www.researchgate.net/publication/376202105_The_effec...
andrewstuart 2y ago
Alcohol based mouthwash should be banned, it certainly is in some countries.
- blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
  Why? It has its benefits too. For example it can reduce viral load in the mouth, reducing the risk of COVID transmission for example. I think people can make their choice as to what product they want to use and what tradeoffs they are okay with.
  - whatisthiseven 2y ago
    Do you have any papers or studies showing it can reduce transmission of any disease? Covid lives in the throat and lungs so I am not sure how a mouth rinse could do anything. Similarly for many other common colds and the flu.
    - blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
      I did a quick search and there are numerous studies that come up. I haven’t analyzed them myself, but it seems like there is a lot of evidence for this (example https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8956107/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8956107/). I also found various things written about covid living in the mouth and playing a role in transmission.
  - andrewstuart 2y ago
    >> Why? Alcohol is suspected to be carcinogenic. https://drugfree.org/drug-and-alcohol-news/australian-study-links-alcohol-containing-mouthwash-to-cancer/ https://drugfree.org/drug-and-alcohol-news/australian-study-... https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/alcohol-based-mouthwash-may-disrupt-oral-microbiome-leading-to-gum-disease-and-certain-cancers https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/alcohol-based-mout...
    - Suppafly 2y ago

boesboes 2y ago

Reminds me of the time the national health something announced in the news it recommended avoiding anti-microbal cleaning products for general use as only the strongest & worst bacteria survive and then get to breed. Immediately followed by a commercial for Detol....

Always42 2y ago

In the past i have struggled with having canker sores. After much googling l read there is an ingredient called sls that's in most toothpastes and it can cause canker sores in some people. I use sls free toothpaste and now i'm good. Less is more

robbles 2y ago
What brand of toothpaste do you use for this? I often struggle to find a toothpaste that's SLS-free but still has fluoride.
- Bluescreenbuddy 2y ago
  Burst - https://burstoralcare.com/products/toothpaste-fluoride https://burstoralcare.com/products/toothpaste-fluoride Also Native has one too.
- Gregordinary 2y ago
  If you don't mind a baking soda toothpaste, then another option is Trader Joe's. They made a baking soda & fluoride toothpaste that is SLS free. Been using it for a number of years now... Though it's been briefly discontinued and is slated to be back later this year.
- redfern314 2y ago
  Also see Hello toothpaste (not affiliated) which has fluoride but not SLS: https://www.hello-products.com/products/naturally-whitening-toothpaste https://www.hello-products.com/products/naturally-whitening-... Same problem for me, constant canker sores. Switching to Hello hasn't totally eliminated them, but it has reduced them.
- Suppafly 2y ago
  Sensodyne is one that's readily available at most stores.
hooverd 2y ago
Hmm, I wonder if putting surfectants in everything might have negative consequences.

thisislife2 2y ago

Interesting. See also Mouthwash use could inhibit benefits of exercise - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34855194 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34855194

hooverd 2y ago

I wonder if xylitol mouthwashes fare better?

mgh2 2y ago

> Streptococcus was the most abundant genus in most samples (n = 103, 61.7 %) So total sample size is 162: small but sufficient, should be replicated and scaled.

reducesuffering 2y ago

I'd recommend clove tea as a healthier mouth wash with an old history to it https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10036978/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10036978/

megous 2y ago

Not really a representative popoulation.

johng 2y ago

I've been using TheraBreath for the past 6 months. They have a ton of different versions now, when I started it they only had one. I can only assume it's becoming quite popular... how would this stuff stack up? I really like TheraBreath.. no more burning when you use it.