6 ms·

It's definitely an aesthetic niche - but you can easily get a Thinkpad with Linux pre-installed, and quite a few people like the design/functionality of Thinkpa

It's definitely an aesthetic niche - but you can easily get a Thinkpad with Linux pre-installed, and quite a few people like the design/functionality of Thinkpads. I think your choices are more 'Utilitarian/Functional design' vs. 'Beautiful design'. Admittedly, Utility/Function designs are often ugly. Another side to the coin is that I enjoy the look and feel of Apple keyboards - but I can't stand working without home/end/delete keys.

KirinDave 14y ago
Lenovo is not a good vendor for linux laptops. Unless you get a behemoth plug-to-plug W520, you have to accept at least one of the following major flaws: 1. Unsupported dual-mode graphics card. 2. Inability to use multiple monitors. 3. Some ports being unusuable. 4. Audio glitches. 5. Hand patching required to keep your laptop stable. 6. Poor support for X11 even with simple Intel integrated graphics. And in all cases you will simply get atrocious battery life compared to the battery life available from the same system via windows. People will tell you, "Oh I don't have a problem with my T61 or my T520," but their definition of "no trouble" is typically so riddled with the phrase, "Oh that doesn't work so I don't do it" that most laptops are reduced to underpowered desktops or doorstops. Currently, there are no competitively priced linux laptops. This stems from a mix of vendor apathy and poor laptop support on Linux. If you would like to build a linux experience comparable to a mac osx or windows laptop with free software, it is currently either so expensive (Lenovo W520) or so difficult (T520) that it's almost certainly not worth your time. You're better off using a competent VM solution to run Linux under Mac OS X and be able to enjoy a fully spectrum of modern hardware and battery life while still getting to use Linux (presumably for your development). Note: And I sort of promised myself I wouldn't post here anymore, but on this one issue I hope this is the warning to someone that I personally never got. Don't try and make a linux laptop. It is a waste of your time and money.
- imperialWicket 14y ago
  Your points on the Thinkpads sound entirely valid - I merely meant that it's possible to get Linux pre-installed on a laptop with a decent form factor (Thinkpads haven't changed substantially in years, clearly they have some fans). I've only ever used Linux on W520s, so I guess I've got a bias. > Currently, there are no competitively priced linux laptops. I think ZaReason, System76, and ThinkPenguin all offer decent machines for prices that beat their Dell, HP, Sony, and Mac counterparts. It's just a question of whether or not their offerings meet your needs. Using a Linux VM on a Mac (or Windows) is definitely a good solution.
  - KirinDave 14y ago
    > Using a Linux VM on a Mac (or Windows) is definitely a good solution. Just to be crystal clear: I did not say it was a good solution. In fact, it's often wholly inadequate. However, it is better as a time investment than trying to get a workable Linux laptop solution.
- Symmetry 14y ago
  I'm running the newest Ubuntu on my T410 and I'm not having any of those problems. I used to patch my xorg to get some extra middle button functionality, but even there the default was that it just worked like it did in Windows and with the newest Ubuntu everything worked just like I wanted out of the box. Now, if you get the crappy Realtek wireless card instead of the Intel wireless, or you get Intel graphics that were released less than 6 months ago you can have serious problems, but if you know to avoid those two things you shouldn't have any trouble.
- rodelrod 14y ago
  I've been running Ubuntu and windows on Thinkpads for years on the "that doesn't work so I don't do it" basis and am perfectly happy. So happy, in fact, that I can't even remember what feature doesn't work on my current machines, if any (X61 and R61). You make a valid point and certainly it would be wonderful to see better integration, but still: 1. performance certainly "feels" better than running windows on the same machines, 2. I spend my day typing and the MacBook's keyboard feels like going back to my ZX Spectrum 3. the 5-6 hours battery I get from an 8-cell are enough for me, thank you.
  - KirinDave 14y ago
    I'm glad you're happy with your box and have found a cost-effective way to use the OS you want to use. I had different expectations shaped by my use of macbooks and trying to recreate feature parity with any Linux laptop as a basis was difficult enough to render it impossible. P.S., I think it's pretty ugly that we only get 5-6 hours from the extended-cell batteries. With the extended batteries they're comparable to macbook pros not running extended batteries.
    - rodelrod 14y ago
      Fifteen years down the road there's nothing I regret more than the time spent fiddling with what would soon become obsolete technology for very little performance gain, if any. Nothing is perfect: you make a choice based on what's really important for you and commit to it, warts and all. P.S. for the record, these are 30$ fake chinese extended-cell batteries I'm talking about ;) In the extremely rare cases where I need more than 5-6 hours autonomy, I carry a spare. If you have enough, why should you bother that there's something else out there that performs better?
      - KirinDave 14y ago
        I tend not to skimp on the cost of construction for my caustic, flammable energy storage medium.
- kamechan 14y ago
  thinkpad T420 user here running archlinux. i agree with none of these points, actually, except #1, which i wouldn't know about because i'm not using dual-mode graphics card. "2. inability to use multiple monitors" < incorrect. i use a docking station with a dell u2711 hooked up to it. pressing fn+f7 switches correctly between external, internal, and external+internal with no problems. "3. some ports being unusable" < incorrect. every port on my thinkpad is usable, including the ports on the docking station. "4. audio glitches" < incorrect. my audio works better with my u2711 (via display-port audio) than it does over my macbook air (via display-port audio). why? because i can control the volume via the volume control via linux+pulse whereas OSX artificially restricts me -- it tells me i can't control the audio levels via mini-display port unless i'm using an apple display. "5. hand patching required to keep the laptop stable" < incorrect? by this, do you mean updates? don't all OSs benefit from updates? if you mean configuration, udev (now systemd-tools) found everything correctly on my thinkpad on the first go. this was the case when i recently ran ubuntu 12.04 off of a flash drive as well. "6. poor support for X11 even with simple intel integrated graphics" < incorrect. i have the intel HD3000 on my thinkpad, which runs everything pretty much the same way that my macbook air (with the intel3000) runs them. flash video at fullscreen with no tearing, etc (in fact, flash runs better on linux than it does on my macbook). regarding battery life, i did have to do a bit of tinkering there. but that's because i'm a bit power-consumption obsessed. i used powertop to show me what needed fine tuning, then wrote a power management script that changes my computer's parameters depending on whether it's plugged in. the result: an idle 7w power consumption (with wi-fi on). that's roughly the same power consumption i get from the macbook air, which is an ULV chipset. battery life for windows on my T420 is ~10 hrs. with linux,...~12hrs. "no competitively priced linux laptops"? my T420 was $1000 with a 2520M processor, 1600x900 resolution display, 160GB intel SATA 3 SSD, and 8GB of RAM.
  - nonviable 14y ago
    Exactly. My primary device is a daily updated (with aptitude) Debian testing on a T410 and have exactly none of the specified problems, though I too don't run a dual-mode graphics card. Not sure where the parent post got their info. Lenovo took a big step down from IBM when they took over the brand, but for my money they are still the best non-mac laptops out there for a Linux user.
- glesica 14y ago
  I can't stand this crap. Do you own a Thinkpad? I'm typing this on a T61 and items 2-6 on your list are complete garbage. I have never experienced any of those things. It's not that I just don't care, I do care. If that much was wrong, I wouldn't own the thing any more (as an aside, what the hell does "hand patching" even mean?) As for item 1, this was dealt with in another thread a few days ago. Optimus can be made to work, but it isn't convenient (run a script then reboot to switch). But if you're planning to "build a Linux laptop", why would you buy one with Optimus? It actually causes problems on Windows too, speaking from personal experience. Linux is not for everyone. Let me repeat that. Linux is not for everyone. But if you want to use Linux, which I do, there are excellent options for doing so at very reasonable prices and Thinkpads are an example of that.
  - KirinDave 14y ago
    I currently own a glitchy T520 that Lenovo has been increasingly reluctant to service as it periodically refuses to turn on. It's been in the shop 4 times. 2-6 on my list are not complete garbage, they're all problems I or other friends I've worked with have experienced with various Lenovo boxes over the last year or so. I actually got Bumblebee/Ironhide working on my T520 without issue, but I couldn't ever do what everyone else could do: get the DisplayPort out to drive an external display. So effectively I was limited to VGA-only for a second monitor (and running Ironhide in such a condition caused a system freeze). Not acceptable. And the one game I do enjoy, Minecraft? Renders unreliably without Ironhide. So... yeah. I had display problems. Not to mention despite the most assiduous reading of FAQs, consulting with powertop-savvy-friends, and appealing for help on twitter I never got more than four hours of light-use battery life from my T520 with the stock battery. This, of course, ignores the nightmare ordering process, the late delivery, the snippy service, and the inability to FIX my machine despite having sent it back a few times now. It's great you have managed to build a decent experience for your specific requirements. I'm glad, I don't wish my pain on anyone. And I really do wish it was better, I miss XMonad dearly. I miss a JVM with good performance dearly. I miss a sane linker dearly. But if your expectations are, "My laptop is fully supported and gets good battery life and does things a macbook would be good at doing" then you will be disappointed with Linux on the laptop, and Lenovo will not be an impressive vendor.

KirinDave 14y ago

Lenovo is not a good vendor for linux laptops. Unless you get a behemoth plug-to-plug W520, you have to accept at least one of the following major flaws: 1. Unsupported dual-mode graphics card. 2. Inability to use multiple monitors. 3. Some ports being unusuable. 4. Audio glitches. 5. Hand patching required to keep your laptop stable. 6. Poor support for X11 even with simple Intel integrated graphics. And in all cases you will simply get atrocious battery life compared to the battery life available from the same system via windows. People will tell you, "Oh I don't have a problem with my T61 or my T520," but their definition of "no trouble" is typically so riddled with the phrase, "Oh that doesn't work so I don't do it" that most laptops are reduced to underpowered desktops or doorstops. Currently, there are no competitively priced linux laptops. This stems from a mix of vendor apathy and poor laptop support on Linux. If you would like to build a linux experience comparable to a mac osx or windows laptop with free software, it is currently either so expensive (Lenovo W520) or so difficult (T520) that it's almost certainly not worth your time. You're better off using a competent VM solution to run Linux under Mac OS X and be able to enjoy a fully spectrum of modern hardware and battery life while still getting to use Linux (presumably for your development). Note: And I sort of promised myself I wouldn't post here anymore, but on this one issue I hope this is the warning to someone that I personally never got. Don't try and make a linux laptop. It is a waste of your time and money.

imperialWicket 14y ago
Your points on the Thinkpads sound entirely valid - I merely meant that it's possible to get Linux pre-installed on a laptop with a decent form factor (Thinkpads haven't changed substantially in years, clearly they have some fans). I've only ever used Linux on W520s, so I guess I've got a bias. > Currently, there are no competitively priced linux laptops. I think ZaReason, System76, and ThinkPenguin all offer decent machines for prices that beat their Dell, HP, Sony, and Mac counterparts. It's just a question of whether or not their offerings meet your needs. Using a Linux VM on a Mac (or Windows) is definitely a good solution.
- KirinDave 14y ago
  > Using a Linux VM on a Mac (or Windows) is definitely a good solution. Just to be crystal clear: I did not say it was a good solution. In fact, it's often wholly inadequate. However, it is better as a time investment than trying to get a workable Linux laptop solution.
Symmetry 14y ago
I'm running the newest Ubuntu on my T410 and I'm not having any of those problems. I used to patch my xorg to get some extra middle button functionality, but even there the default was that it just worked like it did in Windows and with the newest Ubuntu everything worked just like I wanted out of the box. Now, if you get the crappy Realtek wireless card instead of the Intel wireless, or you get Intel graphics that were released less than 6 months ago you can have serious problems, but if you know to avoid those two things you shouldn't have any trouble.
rodelrod 14y ago
I've been running Ubuntu and windows on Thinkpads for years on the "that doesn't work so I don't do it" basis and am perfectly happy. So happy, in fact, that I can't even remember what feature doesn't work on my current machines, if any (X61 and R61). You make a valid point and certainly it would be wonderful to see better integration, but still: 1. performance certainly "feels" better than running windows on the same machines, 2. I spend my day typing and the MacBook's keyboard feels like going back to my ZX Spectrum 3. the 5-6 hours battery I get from an 8-cell are enough for me, thank you.
- KirinDave 14y ago
  I'm glad you're happy with your box and have found a cost-effective way to use the OS you want to use. I had different expectations shaped by my use of macbooks and trying to recreate feature parity with any Linux laptop as a basis was difficult enough to render it impossible. P.S., I think it's pretty ugly that we only get 5-6 hours from the extended-cell batteries. With the extended batteries they're comparable to macbook pros not running extended batteries.
  - rodelrod 14y ago
    Fifteen years down the road there's nothing I regret more than the time spent fiddling with what would soon become obsolete technology for very little performance gain, if any. Nothing is perfect: you make a choice based on what's really important for you and commit to it, warts and all. P.S. for the record, these are 30$ fake chinese extended-cell batteries I'm talking about ;) In the extremely rare cases where I need more than 5-6 hours autonomy, I carry a spare. If you have enough, why should you bother that there's something else out there that performs better?
    - KirinDave 14y ago
      I tend not to skimp on the cost of construction for my caustic, flammable energy storage medium.
kamechan 14y ago
thinkpad T420 user here running archlinux. i agree with none of these points, actually, except #1, which i wouldn't know about because i'm not using dual-mode graphics card. "2. inability to use multiple monitors" < incorrect. i use a docking station with a dell u2711 hooked up to it. pressing fn+f7 switches correctly between external, internal, and external+internal with no problems. "3. some ports being unusable" < incorrect. every port on my thinkpad is usable, including the ports on the docking station. "4. audio glitches" < incorrect. my audio works better with my u2711 (via display-port audio) than it does over my macbook air (via display-port audio). why? because i can control the volume via the volume control via linux+pulse whereas OSX artificially restricts me -- it tells me i can't control the audio levels via mini-display port unless i'm using an apple display. "5. hand patching required to keep the laptop stable" < incorrect? by this, do you mean updates? don't all OSs benefit from updates? if you mean configuration, udev (now systemd-tools) found everything correctly on my thinkpad on the first go. this was the case when i recently ran ubuntu 12.04 off of a flash drive as well. "6. poor support for X11 even with simple intel integrated graphics" < incorrect. i have the intel HD3000 on my thinkpad, which runs everything pretty much the same way that my macbook air (with the intel3000) runs them. flash video at fullscreen with no tearing, etc (in fact, flash runs better on linux than it does on my macbook). regarding battery life, i did have to do a bit of tinkering there. but that's because i'm a bit power-consumption obsessed. i used powertop to show me what needed fine tuning, then wrote a power management script that changes my computer's parameters depending on whether it's plugged in. the result: an idle 7w power consumption (with wi-fi on). that's roughly the same power consumption i get from the macbook air, which is an ULV chipset. battery life for windows on my T420 is ~10 hrs. with linux,...~12hrs. "no competitively priced linux laptops"? my T420 was $1000 with a 2520M processor, 1600x900 resolution display, 160GB intel SATA 3 SSD, and 8GB of RAM.
- nonviable 14y ago
  Exactly. My primary device is a daily updated (with aptitude) Debian testing on a T410 and have exactly none of the specified problems, though I too don't run a dual-mode graphics card. Not sure where the parent post got their info. Lenovo took a big step down from IBM when they took over the brand, but for my money they are still the best non-mac laptops out there for a Linux user.
glesica 14y ago
I can't stand this crap. Do you own a Thinkpad? I'm typing this on a T61 and items 2-6 on your list are complete garbage. I have never experienced any of those things. It's not that I just don't care, I do care. If that much was wrong, I wouldn't own the thing any more (as an aside, what the hell does "hand patching" even mean?) As for item 1, this was dealt with in another thread a few days ago. Optimus can be made to work, but it isn't convenient (run a script then reboot to switch). But if you're planning to "build a Linux laptop", why would you buy one with Optimus? It actually causes problems on Windows too, speaking from personal experience. Linux is not for everyone. Let me repeat that. Linux is not for everyone. But if you want to use Linux, which I do, there are excellent options for doing so at very reasonable prices and Thinkpads are an example of that.
- KirinDave 14y ago
  I currently own a glitchy T520 that Lenovo has been increasingly reluctant to service as it periodically refuses to turn on. It's been in the shop 4 times. 2-6 on my list are not complete garbage, they're all problems I or other friends I've worked with have experienced with various Lenovo boxes over the last year or so. I actually got Bumblebee/Ironhide working on my T520 without issue, but I couldn't ever do what everyone else could do: get the DisplayPort out to drive an external display. So effectively I was limited to VGA-only for a second monitor (and running Ironhide in such a condition caused a system freeze). Not acceptable. And the one game I do enjoy, Minecraft? Renders unreliably without Ironhide. So... yeah. I had display problems. Not to mention despite the most assiduous reading of FAQs, consulting with powertop-savvy-friends, and appealing for help on twitter I never got more than four hours of light-use battery life from my T520 with the stock battery. This, of course, ignores the nightmare ordering process, the late delivery, the snippy service, and the inability to FIX my machine despite having sent it back a few times now. It's great you have managed to build a decent experience for your specific requirements. I'm glad, I don't wish my pain on anyone. And I really do wish it was better, I miss XMonad dearly. I miss a JVM with good performance dearly. I miss a sane linker dearly. But if your expectations are, "My laptop is fully supported and gets good battery life and does things a macbook would be good at doing" then you will be disappointed with Linux on the laptop, and Lenovo will not be an impressive vendor.