8 ms·

Think is exactly why macbooks are so popular. I think if a laptop manufacturer spent some (a-lot?) of effort on hardware design to compete with Apple then there

by rikf 14y ago

Think is exactly why macbooks are so popular. I think if a laptop manufacturer spent some (a-lot?) of effort on hardware design to compete with Apple then there would be huge demand from developers. As a developer now I have a laptop choice of a) Horrible design with linux installed. b) Beautiful design with a BSD like os installed. It really is a no brainer. Even Linus uses a MBA I wonder when hardware manufacturers will start to realise that people actually care about owning beautiful things.

pnathan 14y ago
When you say design, do you mean surface appearance? Or do you mean quality of engineering and thought put into making the machine? Those are two different things.
- pyre 14y ago
  Industrial design covers both the appearance and the utilitarian aspects, IIRC. What Apple does is usually qualified as industrial design. That's not to say that they are perfect, but there is greater attention to detail (and not just visible detail) than other manufacturers.
imperialWicket 14y ago
It's definitely an aesthetic niche - but you can easily get a Thinkpad with Linux pre-installed, and quite a few people like the design/functionality of Thinkpads. I think your choices are more 'Utilitarian/Functional design' vs. 'Beautiful design'. Admittedly, Utility/Function designs are often ugly. Another side to the coin is that I enjoy the look and feel of Apple keyboards - but I can't stand working without home/end/delete keys.
- KirinDave 14y ago
  Lenovo is not a good vendor for linux laptops. Unless you get a behemoth plug-to-plug W520, you have to accept at least one of the following major flaws: 1. Unsupported dual-mode graphics card. 2. Inability to use multiple monitors. 3. Some ports being unusuable. 4. Audio glitches. 5. Hand patching required to keep your laptop stable. 6. Poor support for X11 even with simple Intel integrated graphics. And in all cases you will simply get atrocious battery life compared to the battery life available from the same system via windows. People will tell you, "Oh I don't have a problem with my T61 or my T520," but their definition of "no trouble" is typically so riddled with the phrase, "Oh that doesn't work so I don't do it" that most laptops are reduced to underpowered desktops or doorstops. Currently, there are no competitively priced linux laptops. This stems from a mix of vendor apathy and poor laptop support on Linux. If you would like to build a linux experience comparable to a mac osx or windows laptop with free software, it is currently either so expensive (Lenovo W520) or so difficult (T520) that it's almost certainly not worth your time. You're better off using a competent VM solution to run Linux under Mac OS X and be able to enjoy a fully spectrum of modern hardware and battery life while still getting to use Linux (presumably for your development). Note: And I sort of promised myself I wouldn't post here anymore, but on this one issue I hope this is the warning to someone that I personally never got. Don't try and make a linux laptop. It is a waste of your time and money.
  - imperialWicket 14y ago
    Your points on the Thinkpads sound entirely valid - I merely meant that it's possible to get Linux pre-installed on a laptop with a decent form factor (Thinkpads haven't changed substantially in years, clearly they have some fans). I've only ever used Linux on W520s, so I guess I've got a bias. > Currently, there are no competitively priced linux laptops. I think ZaReason, System76, and ThinkPenguin all offer decent machines for prices that beat their Dell, HP, Sony, and Mac counterparts. It's just a question of whether or not their offerings meet your needs. Using a Linux VM on a Mac (or Windows) is definitely a good solution.
    - KirinDave 14y ago
      > Using a Linux VM on a Mac (or Windows) is definitely a good solution. Just to be crystal clear: I did not say it was a good solution. In fact, it's often wholly inadequate. However, it is better as a time investment than trying to get a workable Linux laptop solution.
  - Symmetry 14y ago
    I'm running the newest Ubuntu on my T410 and I'm not having any of those problems. I used to patch my xorg to get some extra middle button functionality, but even there the default was that it just worked like it did in Windows and with the newest Ubuntu everything worked just like I wanted out of the box. Now, if you get the crappy Realtek wireless card instead of the Intel wireless, or you get Intel graphics that were released less than 6 months ago you can have serious problems, but if you know to avoid those two things you shouldn't have any trouble.
  - rodelrod 14y ago
    I've been running Ubuntu and windows on Thinkpads for years on the "that doesn't work so I don't do it" basis and am perfectly happy. So happy, in fact, that I can't even remember what feature doesn't work on my current machines, if any (X61 and R61). You make a valid point and certainly it would be wonderful to see better integration, but still: 1. performance certainly "feels" better than running windows on the same machines, 2. I spend my day typing and the MacBook's keyboard feels like going back to my ZX Spectrum 3. the 5-6 hours battery I get from an 8-cell are enough for me, thank you.
doktrin 14y ago
I agree. I'm in the market for a new notebook, however I strongly dislike the design of these machines. This isn't to say that all non-Apple products have horrible aesthetics. Samsung stands out to me as a PC manufacturer that makes cool PC laptops. That said, I haven't worked with one so I have no way to evaluate the keyboard and general functionality. However, the aesthetic look of the notebooks offered here is enough to put me off a purchase entirely - which is unfortunate.
LinXitoW 14y ago
Lenovo Thinkpads have very dedicated fans that have created drivers for almost everything. Installing Ubuntu 12.04 on my TP T61, there was zero configuration or hacking around needed. Every last wierd, unique or proprietary feature worked out of the box. That being said, your point still stands. Official support is a lot better than unofficial support.
- ginko 14y ago
  The new Thinkpads are a huge step backwards however. Lenovo screwed one of the defining qualities of the Thinkpad line by replacing the high-quality keyboards with chiclet island keys that also have a row of keys less than previously. They also switched from 4:3 to 16:10 and now to 16:9 displays. The only resolution you can get the X-series thinkpads in is 1366x768. At least you can get 1600x900 displays for the T-series. (Which Lenovo ironically calls HD+) It's almost like Lenovo WANTS me to switch to Apple.
  - ashleyblackmore 14y ago
    Is there any way to fix the keyboards on the new Thinkpads? I read somewhere about some people replacing the keyboards on the last line of Thinkpads with more robust ones. I was thinking of getting one of the new ones but hearing this stuff about the keyboard is a real turnoff
  - j-kidd 14y ago
    What problem do you have with the chiclet keyboard on Thinkpad? For me, it is awesome, and ever since I started using one 18 months ago, my laptop buying criteria became "Is it a Thinkpad with chiclet keyboard?" I am glad Lenovo switched all lines to chiclet keyboard in the latest refresh. I think it is a bold but calculated move.
    - ginko 14y ago
      While I generally prefer the classic keyshapes, my main problem with the new Thinkpad keyboards is the removed row. Instead of the Insert/Delete/Home/End/PgUp/PgDown key block in the upper right corner, the keys are put into the function key row. This also means that the gaps between F4&F5 and F8&F9 are removed. They also removed the menu key and replaced it with Print for some reason. With the old Thinkpads, you could just pick them up and start typing without having to learn too many idiosyncrasies of the laptop keymapping. This is not the case anymore. When you work both on a laptop and a regular keyboard, this gets really painful.
ineedtosleep 14y ago
> ...will start to realise that people actually care about owning beautiful things. Thanks for speaking for _everyone_, but no. It's just most people are really superficial. The end. Hardware manufacturers need to be as superficial in order to compete with Apple, however, part of me thinks that it will just turn consumer computing into a boring homogeneous set of devices across all manufacturers.
- 2muchcoffeeman 14y ago
  'superficial' is not the right word for what Apple does. An Apple machine is really very utilitarian and simple. It's a box with rounded corners and tapered edges. Pop off the screws and the case itself provides the structure for the machine. No extra structural support. The bulk of the material is also recyclable. If you look at other computers, especially before the brushed aluminium trend, it was everyone else that had fancy sculpting on their enclosures, the keyboards, fancy personalisations. Just look at the machines linked. And they all needed extra stuff on the inside to provide a skeleton. Apple machines certainly look good (why do we think grey boxes with round corners and tapered edges look good?), but they have also thought about manufacturing, engineering, materials, disposal etc ...
- ImprovedSilence 14y ago
  'part of me thinks that it will just turn consumer computing into a boring homogeneous set of devices across all manufacturers.' Isn't that where the PC world is now?
  - WayneDB 14y ago
    Hardly. None of the following look very similar to each other. - http://us.acer.com/ac/en/US/content/series/aspire-timelinex http://us.acer.com/ac/en/US/content/series/aspire-timelinex - http://www.dell.com/us/p/xps-l702x/pd http://www.dell.com/us/p/xps-l702x/pd - http://store.sony.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CategoryDisplay?catalogId=10551&storeId=10151&langId=-1&categoryId=8198552921644852023 http://store.sony.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CategoryDisp... - http://usa.asus.com/Notebooks/ http://usa.asus.com/Notebooks/
esolyt 14y ago
Actually, Linus doesn't use a MBA because it is beautiful. He uses it because it is thin, light and portable.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
goatslacker 14y ago
When it comes to a developer laptop I can really care less about design, slimness, even weight. The most important things for me are A matte screen Excellent keyboard Large resolution for large amount of screen real estate SSD Good CPU & RAM And built solid/well That being said it's really difficult to find that sort of combination in anything other than a Mac
BryanB55 14y ago
agreed. I thought this article was a joke or something in response to the new apple products. Looking at their website design, never mind product design just hurts my eyes now.

by rikf 14y ago

pnathan 14y ago

When you say design, do you mean surface appearance? Or do you mean quality of engineering and thought put into making the machine? Those are two different things.

pyre 14y ago
Industrial design covers both the appearance and the utilitarian aspects, IIRC. What Apple does is usually qualified as industrial design. That's not to say that they are perfect, but there is greater attention to detail (and not just visible detail) than other manufacturers.

imperialWicket 14y ago

It's definitely an aesthetic niche - but you can easily get a Thinkpad with Linux pre-installed, and quite a few people like the design/functionality of Thinkpads. I think your choices are more 'Utilitarian/Functional design' vs. 'Beautiful design'. Admittedly, Utility/Function designs are often ugly. Another side to the coin is that I enjoy the look and feel of Apple keyboards - but I can't stand working without home/end/delete keys.

KirinDave 14y ago
Lenovo is not a good vendor for linux laptops. Unless you get a behemoth plug-to-plug W520, you have to accept at least one of the following major flaws: 1. Unsupported dual-mode graphics card. 2. Inability to use multiple monitors. 3. Some ports being unusuable. 4. Audio glitches. 5. Hand patching required to keep your laptop stable. 6. Poor support for X11 even with simple Intel integrated graphics. And in all cases you will simply get atrocious battery life compared to the battery life available from the same system via windows. People will tell you, "Oh I don't have a problem with my T61 or my T520," but their definition of "no trouble" is typically so riddled with the phrase, "Oh that doesn't work so I don't do it" that most laptops are reduced to underpowered desktops or doorstops. Currently, there are no competitively priced linux laptops. This stems from a mix of vendor apathy and poor laptop support on Linux. If you would like to build a linux experience comparable to a mac osx or windows laptop with free software, it is currently either so expensive (Lenovo W520) or so difficult (T520) that it's almost certainly not worth your time. You're better off using a competent VM solution to run Linux under Mac OS X and be able to enjoy a fully spectrum of modern hardware and battery life while still getting to use Linux (presumably for your development). Note: And I sort of promised myself I wouldn't post here anymore, but on this one issue I hope this is the warning to someone that I personally never got. Don't try and make a linux laptop. It is a waste of your time and money.
- imperialWicket 14y ago
  Your points on the Thinkpads sound entirely valid - I merely meant that it's possible to get Linux pre-installed on a laptop with a decent form factor (Thinkpads haven't changed substantially in years, clearly they have some fans). I've only ever used Linux on W520s, so I guess I've got a bias. > Currently, there are no competitively priced linux laptops. I think ZaReason, System76, and ThinkPenguin all offer decent machines for prices that beat their Dell, HP, Sony, and Mac counterparts. It's just a question of whether or not their offerings meet your needs. Using a Linux VM on a Mac (or Windows) is definitely a good solution.
  - KirinDave 14y ago
    > Using a Linux VM on a Mac (or Windows) is definitely a good solution. Just to be crystal clear: I did not say it was a good solution. In fact, it's often wholly inadequate. However, it is better as a time investment than trying to get a workable Linux laptop solution.
- Symmetry 14y ago
  I'm running the newest Ubuntu on my T410 and I'm not having any of those problems. I used to patch my xorg to get some extra middle button functionality, but even there the default was that it just worked like it did in Windows and with the newest Ubuntu everything worked just like I wanted out of the box. Now, if you get the crappy Realtek wireless card instead of the Intel wireless, or you get Intel graphics that were released less than 6 months ago you can have serious problems, but if you know to avoid those two things you shouldn't have any trouble.
- rodelrod 14y ago
  I've been running Ubuntu and windows on Thinkpads for years on the "that doesn't work so I don't do it" basis and am perfectly happy. So happy, in fact, that I can't even remember what feature doesn't work on my current machines, if any (X61 and R61). You make a valid point and certainly it would be wonderful to see better integration, but still: 1. performance certainly "feels" better than running windows on the same machines, 2. I spend my day typing and the MacBook's keyboard feels like going back to my ZX Spectrum 3. the 5-6 hours battery I get from an 8-cell are enough for me, thank you.

doktrin 14y ago

I agree. I'm in the market for a new notebook, however I strongly dislike the design of these machines. This isn't to say that all non-Apple products have horrible aesthetics. Samsung stands out to me as a PC manufacturer that makes cool PC laptops. That said, I haven't worked with one so I have no way to evaluate the keyboard and general functionality. However, the aesthetic look of the notebooks offered here is enough to put me off a purchase entirely - which is unfortunate.

LinXitoW 14y ago

Lenovo Thinkpads have very dedicated fans that have created drivers for almost everything. Installing Ubuntu 12.04 on my TP T61, there was zero configuration or hacking around needed. Every last wierd, unique or proprietary feature worked out of the box. That being said, your point still stands. Official support is a lot better than unofficial support.

ginko 14y ago
The new Thinkpads are a huge step backwards however. Lenovo screwed one of the defining qualities of the Thinkpad line by replacing the high-quality keyboards with chiclet island keys that also have a row of keys less than previously. They also switched from 4:3 to 16:10 and now to 16:9 displays. The only resolution you can get the X-series thinkpads in is 1366x768. At least you can get 1600x900 displays for the T-series. (Which Lenovo ironically calls HD+) It's almost like Lenovo WANTS me to switch to Apple.
- ashleyblackmore 14y ago
  Is there any way to fix the keyboards on the new Thinkpads? I read somewhere about some people replacing the keyboards on the last line of Thinkpads with more robust ones. I was thinking of getting one of the new ones but hearing this stuff about the keyboard is a real turnoff
- j-kidd 14y ago
  What problem do you have with the chiclet keyboard on Thinkpad? For me, it is awesome, and ever since I started using one 18 months ago, my laptop buying criteria became "Is it a Thinkpad with chiclet keyboard?" I am glad Lenovo switched all lines to chiclet keyboard in the latest refresh. I think it is a bold but calculated move.
  - ginko 14y ago
    While I generally prefer the classic keyshapes, my main problem with the new Thinkpad keyboards is the removed row. Instead of the Insert/Delete/Home/End/PgUp/PgDown key block in the upper right corner, the keys are put into the function key row. This also means that the gaps between F4&F5 and F8&F9 are removed. They also removed the menu key and replaced it with Print for some reason. With the old Thinkpads, you could just pick them up and start typing without having to learn too many idiosyncrasies of the laptop keymapping. This is not the case anymore. When you work both on a laptop and a regular keyboard, this gets really painful.

ineedtosleep 14y ago

> ...will start to realise that people actually care about owning beautiful things. Thanks for speaking for _everyone_, but no. It's just most people are really superficial. The end. Hardware manufacturers need to be as superficial in order to compete with Apple, however, part of me thinks that it will just turn consumer computing into a boring homogeneous set of devices across all manufacturers.

2muchcoffeeman 14y ago
'superficial' is not the right word for what Apple does. An Apple machine is really very utilitarian and simple. It's a box with rounded corners and tapered edges. Pop off the screws and the case itself provides the structure for the machine. No extra structural support. The bulk of the material is also recyclable. If you look at other computers, especially before the brushed aluminium trend, it was everyone else that had fancy sculpting on their enclosures, the keyboards, fancy personalisations. Just look at the machines linked. And they all needed extra stuff on the inside to provide a skeleton. Apple machines certainly look good (why do we think grey boxes with round corners and tapered edges look good?), but they have also thought about manufacturing, engineering, materials, disposal etc ...
ImprovedSilence 14y ago
'part of me thinks that it will just turn consumer computing into a boring homogeneous set of devices across all manufacturers.' Isn't that where the PC world is now?
- WayneDB 14y ago
  Hardly. None of the following look very similar to each other. - http://us.acer.com/ac/en/US/content/series/aspire-timelinex http://us.acer.com/ac/en/US/content/series/aspire-timelinex - http://www.dell.com/us/p/xps-l702x/pd http://www.dell.com/us/p/xps-l702x/pd - http://store.sony.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CategoryDisplay?catalogId=10551&storeId=10151&langId=-1&categoryId=8198552921644852023 http://store.sony.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CategoryDisp... - http://usa.asus.com/Notebooks/ http://usa.asus.com/Notebooks/

esolyt 14y ago

Actually, Linus doesn't use a MBA because it is beautiful. He uses it because it is thin, light and portable.

deleted 14y ago
[deleted]

goatslacker 14y ago

When it comes to a developer laptop I can really care less about design, slimness, even weight. The most important things for me are A matte screen Excellent keyboard Large resolution for large amount of screen real estate SSD Good CPU & RAM And built solid/well That being said it's really difficult to find that sort of combination in anything other than a Mac

BryanB55 14y ago

agreed. I thought this article was a joke or something in response to the new apple products. Looking at their website design, never mind product design just hurts my eyes now.