3 ms·

I know this doesn't fit the author's goals but I still think the trick with the surface line is using WSL instead of trying to run native Linux. Things have imp

I know this doesn't fit the author's goals but I still think the trick with the surface line is using WSL instead of trying to run native Linux. Things have improved over time but when I was using my Surface Pro 4, Linux support was still pretty lacking. Maybe things will get better now that they're practically EOL with Win10 ending next year and no support for Win11. Unfortunately my SSD started to fail and battery life was poor enough that I ended up buying something else. The iFixit repair score reflects how much of a pain it would be to replace both of those. I do miss it sometimes, I really liked the 3:2 aspect ratio.

yjftsjthsd-h 2y ago
Does WSL handle multi-touch/gestures well?
- treesknees 2y ago
  As far as I know it only supports basic tapping/clicking for GUI applications and not multi-touch or gestures. https://github.com/microsoft/wslg/issues/737 https://github.com/microsoft/wslg/issues/737
- goosedragons 2y ago
  No, it doesn't even handle Windows Snap.
tstrimple 2y ago
I guess that works because Linux power management is almost as bad as Windows so not a lot is lost. I'll never understand how people pick mobile devices with such short battery life. I further don't understand how literally no company other than Apple is able to deliver decent battery life. Even Microsoft's first party offerings which aren't infected by OEM bullshit are garbage in this regard.
- divbzero 2y ago
  > how literally no company other than Apple is able to deliver decent battery life Apple’s full vertical integration from chip on up gives them an advantage here. For example, the doubling of video playback battery life from iPhone 12 Pro Max to iPhone 13 Pro Max [1] probably came from a new low-power display plus a new video decoder in the A15 Bionic chip. [1]: https://www.reddit.com/r/apple/comments/ppevl6/streamed_video_playback_battery_life_improved/ https://www.reddit.com/r/apple/comments/ppevl6/streamed_vide...
- commandersaki 2y ago
  These new Snapdragon Elite X laptops compete on battery life. But I need to build for Linux/amd64 and I don't want to emulate so it's either Intel laptop or Apple Silicon laptop with Rosetta 2 for Linux.
  - callalex 2y ago
    Do they still compete on battery life while running a corporate email client, corporate chat client (Slack/Teams) and an editor (text/code/spreadsheet) in the background while completely idle? You’d think such simple idle workloads wouldn’t matter and yet I only find macOS to be capable of reigning in even these “light” background tasks without manual process suspension and killing. I don’t understand how we got to this point but it seems to be how my “real” world works.
    - izacus 2y ago
      Yes. Even the Zen4 AMD Ryzen chips do.
- Mashimo 2y ago
  > I'll never understand how people pick mobile devices with such short battery life. Some people don't need all that much battery life. For me trains and buses, meeting rooms and at home there are outlets. It's a convenience thing when I want to sit at home on the couch without a cable attacked to my laptop.
vladvasiliu 2y ago
I'm actually rather fine with what WSL can do. Hell, many of the tools I use run fine on Windows itself. But for me, the biggest shortcoming of this arrangement is having to put up with Windows' UX. I hate every single second I have to interact with this steaming pile of crap.
- xtracto 2y ago
  This so much. I've run Linux in all my desktop machines for 10+ years. When I was younger it was mainly due to ideology, but now I really don't care. Although most linux distros still have quirks (bluetooth issues, sleep/resume issues, no hibernation out of the box, high battery consumption, among a plethora a of other papercuts) I am sticking with it mainly because windows ux just sux so much. Every new computer I buy I give the installed windows a try and oh my god, it becomes crappier with every version. For me Windows 2000 was the best... 20 years ago. It's been downhill from there.
  - vladvasiliu 2y ago
    > Although most linux distros still have quirks (bluetooth issues, sleep/resume issues, no hibernation out of the box, high battery consumption, among a plethora a of other papercuts) I am sticking with it mainly because windows ux just sux so much. Heh, as usual, YMMV. My bluetooth headphones actually work reliably on Linux (with LDAC support!), while on Windows I usually have to fiddle with them for a few minutes until they start working. For some reason, whenever I reconnect them, Windows thinks it's a different "sound card". I sometimes can't control the volume in video calls, and they start at the max which is painful. Battery is much better on Linux (there not being anything doing god knows what with the cpu for no reason must help), and it actually stays asleep when I close it. Hibernation also worked well whenever I tried it, but I don't really have any use for it, so I can't tell for sure it's actually fully reliable. I didn't jump through any hoops for this other than an almost standard Arch install ("almost" because I use a fully encrypted drive with TPM+PIN unlock and secure boot with my own keys).
    - tracker1 2y ago
memsom 2y ago
You say no support for Win 11, but my Surface 2 Pro runs Windows 11 just fine. I don't think it even asked for the license key when I installed it. I probably used Rufus to make the image and turned off some of the more problematic aspects of Win 11, but it for sure installs with little or no problems. This is also a 4GiB model with 128GiB storage. It is very usable, despite having a processor equivalent to a pre-retina MacBook Air IIRC.
trelane 2y ago
The trick to running Linux on the Microsoft Surface line is to not. > Things have improved over time but when I was using my Surface Pro 4, Linux support was still pretty lacking I don't know why you would be surprised that Microsoft hardware fails to run Linux well.
rty32 2y ago
WSL still has a ton of issues, slow IO and CPU usage, just to name two of them. Search "WSL vmmem" and you'll see what I mean. It is nowhere near ready for serious use if you are spending 90% of time doing development in a Linux environment.

yjftsjthsd-h 2y ago

Does WSL handle multi-touch/gestures well?

treesknees 2y ago
As far as I know it only supports basic tapping/clicking for GUI applications and not multi-touch or gestures. https://github.com/microsoft/wslg/issues/737 https://github.com/microsoft/wslg/issues/737
goosedragons 2y ago
No, it doesn't even handle Windows Snap.

tstrimple 2y ago

I guess that works because Linux power management is almost as bad as Windows so not a lot is lost. I'll never understand how people pick mobile devices with such short battery life. I further don't understand how literally no company other than Apple is able to deliver decent battery life. Even Microsoft's first party offerings which aren't infected by OEM bullshit are garbage in this regard.

divbzero 2y ago
> how literally no company other than Apple is able to deliver decent battery life Apple’s full vertical integration from chip on up gives them an advantage here. For example, the doubling of video playback battery life from iPhone 12 Pro Max to iPhone 13 Pro Max [1] probably came from a new low-power display plus a new video decoder in the A15 Bionic chip. [1]: https://www.reddit.com/r/apple/comments/ppevl6/streamed_video_playback_battery_life_improved/ https://www.reddit.com/r/apple/comments/ppevl6/streamed_vide...
commandersaki 2y ago
These new Snapdragon Elite X laptops compete on battery life. But I need to build for Linux/amd64 and I don't want to emulate so it's either Intel laptop or Apple Silicon laptop with Rosetta 2 for Linux.
- callalex 2y ago
  Do they still compete on battery life while running a corporate email client, corporate chat client (Slack/Teams) and an editor (text/code/spreadsheet) in the background while completely idle? You’d think such simple idle workloads wouldn’t matter and yet I only find macOS to be capable of reigning in even these “light” background tasks without manual process suspension and killing. I don’t understand how we got to this point but it seems to be how my “real” world works.
  - izacus 2y ago
    Yes. Even the Zen4 AMD Ryzen chips do.
Mashimo 2y ago
> I'll never understand how people pick mobile devices with such short battery life. Some people don't need all that much battery life. For me trains and buses, meeting rooms and at home there are outlets. It's a convenience thing when I want to sit at home on the couch without a cable attacked to my laptop.

vladvasiliu 2y ago

I'm actually rather fine with what WSL can do. Hell, many of the tools I use run fine on Windows itself. But for me, the biggest shortcoming of this arrangement is having to put up with Windows' UX. I hate every single second I have to interact with this steaming pile of crap.

xtracto 2y ago
This so much. I've run Linux in all my desktop machines for 10+ years. When I was younger it was mainly due to ideology, but now I really don't care. Although most linux distros still have quirks (bluetooth issues, sleep/resume issues, no hibernation out of the box, high battery consumption, among a plethora a of other papercuts) I am sticking with it mainly because windows ux just sux so much. Every new computer I buy I give the installed windows a try and oh my god, it becomes crappier with every version. For me Windows 2000 was the best... 20 years ago. It's been downhill from there.
- vladvasiliu 2y ago
  > Although most linux distros still have quirks (bluetooth issues, sleep/resume issues, no hibernation out of the box, high battery consumption, among a plethora a of other papercuts) I am sticking with it mainly because windows ux just sux so much. Heh, as usual, YMMV. My bluetooth headphones actually work reliably on Linux (with LDAC support!), while on Windows I usually have to fiddle with them for a few minutes until they start working. For some reason, whenever I reconnect them, Windows thinks it's a different "sound card". I sometimes can't control the volume in video calls, and they start at the max which is painful. Battery is much better on Linux (there not being anything doing god knows what with the cpu for no reason must help), and it actually stays asleep when I close it. Hibernation also worked well whenever I tried it, but I don't really have any use for it, so I can't tell for sure it's actually fully reliable. I didn't jump through any hoops for this other than an almost standard Arch install ("almost" because I use a fully encrypted drive with TPM+PIN unlock and secure boot with my own keys).
  - tracker1 2y ago

memsom 2y ago

You say no support for Win 11, but my Surface 2 Pro runs Windows 11 just fine. I don't think it even asked for the license key when I installed it. I probably used Rufus to make the image and turned off some of the more problematic aspects of Win 11, but it for sure installs with little or no problems. This is also a 4GiB model with 128GiB storage. It is very usable, despite having a processor equivalent to a pre-retina MacBook Air IIRC.

trelane 2y ago

The trick to running Linux on the Microsoft Surface line is to not. > Things have improved over time but when I was using my Surface Pro 4, Linux support was still pretty lacking I don't know why you would be surprised that Microsoft hardware fails to run Linux well.

rty32 2y ago

WSL still has a ton of issues, slow IO and CPU usage, just to name two of them. Search "WSL vmmem" and you'll see what I mean. It is nowhere near ready for serious use if you are spending 90% of time doing development in a Linux environment.