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Strategy for EU Bootstrapping Hardware Startups: Don't Sell to Anyone in EU

44 points by JoshTriplett 2y ago

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
hcfman 2y ago
Then add in the 15 million euro fine if do fail to comply to the cyber security resilience act. You’ll love it here! For that reason alone I expect increasingly less willingly to offer more than the basic guarantee due to risk of not being able to carry out upgrades at a certain point to be CRA compliant.
isawczuk 2y ago
I think article lack of research, and shows EU as less hardware friendly that is in reality. 1. You can do self-certification for CE. 2. You can find many companies that will do assembly in EU, so you can controll quality. 3. If you are selling kit as DIY, you don't need any certification at all (look at first years of Prusa)
overstay8930 2y ago
People are going to point out flaws or loopholes they know about that would be even easier, but they’re missing the point: it was not possible for someone genuinely in the process of launching a product to find out. My side business was a small tool which was just a 3d printed case with an ESP32 I programmed w/ some small electronics and I sold it as is online. US + local government made sure there was zero friction even down to dealing with USPS shipping pickup issues. If I was still in Germany they would have shut me down and fined me personally for even trying. It is crazy that the best business plan for a European starts at buying a plane ticket to America.
- fuzzfactor 2y ago
  It's almost like free enterprise is one of the scariest things to those who would much prefer bureaucracy & monarchy.
  - alextingle 2y ago
    You think Germany has a monarchy??
    - fuzzfactor 2y ago
      Are you one of the ones who would prefer it that way? Actually I think it goes something like this: Q. You think Germany has a monarchy?? Answers own Q with clenched fist. I'll show you a monarchy !!
  - snowpid 2y ago
    so the American president can prosecuted for crime he or she did during the presidency? ;)
    - fuzzfactor 2y ago
      Good call, the US probably has more fans of future monarchy than Europe has nostalgia for lost royalty.
      - snowpid 2y ago
        I'm pretty sure there is no nostalgia in Germany about royalty.
- jononor 2y ago
  Are you sure that would actually happen in Germany? In Norway (which has the same rules), most likely no-one would care - unless the electronics actually ended up in a safety hazard (say fire).
- markus92 2y ago
  Can you name an example of someone being shut down cus of that in Germany (or anywhere else in the EU really)? I honestly can't think of a single regulation that would apply in the EU and not apply in the US for some reason or another for this use case.
brnt 2y ago
The first question about Chesterton fences is: why is it there?
- nicbou 2y ago
  Correct. On the other hand, Europe (and especially my home Germany) tend to be really bad at navigating people through the laws and regulations they create. Laypeople are left to figure out what the laws are, what they mean, how to follow them, where to get the required certifications etc. My first year of running a simple business in Germany was unbelievably confusing. My only saving grace was that none of those laws are enforced. GDPR is a good example.
  - ktosobcy 2y ago
    > Europe (and especially my home Germany) Europe/EU is not Germany… and Germany is infamous for it's dumb redtape and being stuck in "their ways" (if it works then it works then there is no need to change that" seems to be a proverb there, inni't?) Besides - in majority of the countries you have to navigate the laws… either yourself or you get an expert/lawyer that does that for you o_O
    - throwaway55110 2y ago
      I did business in Poland, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Hungary, Croatia, Slovenia, Estonia and Sweden. It was a total shitshow, and I moved it all to UK, which is much better (especially the gov.uk site is a godsend).
      - piva00 2y ago
        What exactly was a shitshow in Sweden? So far in my experience it's quite a breeze to start and run a business here.
        throwaway55110 2y ago
        As everywhere else in EU (and unlike the UK), filling taxes and registering employees for all the necessary insurances and gov agencies becomes an extreme burden as soon as you go beyond just one person / the simplest business transactions. It's a fulltime job even if the company is still very small and just doesn't have the resources to hire a fulltime dedicated person.
Sophistifunk 2y ago
An ARM computer running a BSD and x stack. What's interesting about it, that makes it a "flying car" as opposed to everybody else's 140 characters?
fvdessen 2y ago
The EU is at the end of the day still 27 countries with their different laws and regulations each trying to protect their own little market. The way the ‘single market’ is constructed is by slapping a bunch of eu wide regulations on top of this mess. So yes it is much easier to sell to single big countries like China or the USA if you can, and it always will be This is not going to be solved soon as EU countries are responding to this pressure by voting for even more protectionism at the national level
Symbiote 2y ago
> In addition, the marketing is currently only in English, which is not the primary language of any EU country. Sorry Ireland...
- M2Ys4U 2y ago
  And Malta
  - Symbiote 2y ago
    I wanted to be fair to Malta, so seeing this on Wikipedia: > A study collecting public opinion on what language was "preferred" discovered that 86 percent of the population preferred Maltese, 12 percent English, and 2 percent Italian. I thought that although English is an official language, it isn't really the primary one. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malta#Languages https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malta#Languages
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
ktosobcy 2y ago
I would love for the people to stop being ignorant and finally realise that "The UE" is not a country... it's a union of 27 diverse countries/economies/cultures... Each one having own interests so managing (and sometimes pushing) to integrate that is just plain difficult... And if you apply to much force the counterforces emerge…
markus92 2y ago
What does the author mean here when referring to customs when shipping products from within the EU to other EU countries? The EU has a customs union... The VAT per country can be a bit of a pain but is a solved problem (Shopify, Amazon, can all take care of it easily).
- Ylpertnodi 2y ago
  I stopped purchasing from the US as the vat gets collected - has to be in cash - by the delivery drivers. Now, i just sweep through the EU various countries (not you, UK [I do so enjoy HP sauce...no more]) to get the best deal, and get charged vat up front.
mknux 2y ago
[flagged]

44 points by JoshTriplett 2y ago

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

Then add in the 15 million euro fine if do fail to comply to the cyber security resilience act. You’ll love it here! For that reason alone I expect increasingly less willingly to offer more than the basic guarantee due to risk of not being able to carry out upgrades at a certain point to be CRA compliant.

isawczuk 2y ago

I think article lack of research, and shows EU as less hardware friendly that is in reality. 1. You can do self-certification for CE. 2. You can find many companies that will do assembly in EU, so you can controll quality. 3. If you are selling kit as DIY, you don't need any certification at all (look at first years of Prusa)

overstay8930 2y ago

People are going to point out flaws or loopholes they know about that would be even easier, but they’re missing the point: it was not possible for someone genuinely in the process of launching a product to find out. My side business was a small tool which was just a 3d printed case with an ESP32 I programmed w/ some small electronics and I sold it as is online. US + local government made sure there was zero friction even down to dealing with USPS shipping pickup issues. If I was still in Germany they would have shut me down and fined me personally for even trying. It is crazy that the best business plan for a European starts at buying a plane ticket to America.

fuzzfactor 2y ago
It's almost like free enterprise is one of the scariest things to those who would much prefer bureaucracy & monarchy.
- alextingle 2y ago
  You think Germany has a monarchy??
  - fuzzfactor 2y ago
    Are you one of the ones who would prefer it that way? Actually I think it goes something like this: Q. You think Germany has a monarchy?? Answers own Q with clenched fist. I'll show you a monarchy !!
- snowpid 2y ago
  so the American president can prosecuted for crime he or she did during the presidency? ;)
  - fuzzfactor 2y ago
    Good call, the US probably has more fans of future monarchy than Europe has nostalgia for lost royalty.
    - snowpid 2y ago
      I'm pretty sure there is no nostalgia in Germany about royalty.
jononor 2y ago
Are you sure that would actually happen in Germany? In Norway (which has the same rules), most likely no-one would care - unless the electronics actually ended up in a safety hazard (say fire).
markus92 2y ago
Can you name an example of someone being shut down cus of that in Germany (or anywhere else in the EU really)? I honestly can't think of a single regulation that would apply in the EU and not apply in the US for some reason or another for this use case.

brnt 2y ago

The first question about Chesterton fences is: why is it there?

nicbou 2y ago
Correct. On the other hand, Europe (and especially my home Germany) tend to be really bad at navigating people through the laws and regulations they create. Laypeople are left to figure out what the laws are, what they mean, how to follow them, where to get the required certifications etc. My first year of running a simple business in Germany was unbelievably confusing. My only saving grace was that none of those laws are enforced. GDPR is a good example.
- ktosobcy 2y ago
  > Europe (and especially my home Germany) Europe/EU is not Germany… and Germany is infamous for it's dumb redtape and being stuck in "their ways" (if it works then it works then there is no need to change that" seems to be a proverb there, inni't?) Besides - in majority of the countries you have to navigate the laws… either yourself or you get an expert/lawyer that does that for you o_O
  - throwaway55110 2y ago
    I did business in Poland, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Hungary, Croatia, Slovenia, Estonia and Sweden. It was a total shitshow, and I moved it all to UK, which is much better (especially the gov.uk site is a godsend).
    - piva00 2y ago
      What exactly was a shitshow in Sweden? So far in my experience it's quite a breeze to start and run a business here.
      - throwaway55110 2y ago
        As everywhere else in EU (and unlike the UK), filling taxes and registering employees for all the necessary insurances and gov agencies becomes an extreme burden as soon as you go beyond just one person / the simplest business transactions. It's a fulltime job even if the company is still very small and just doesn't have the resources to hire a fulltime dedicated person.

Sophistifunk 2y ago

An ARM computer running a BSD and x stack. What's interesting about it, that makes it a "flying car" as opposed to everybody else's 140 characters?

fvdessen 2y ago

The EU is at the end of the day still 27 countries with their different laws and regulations each trying to protect their own little market. The way the ‘single market’ is constructed is by slapping a bunch of eu wide regulations on top of this mess. So yes it is much easier to sell to single big countries like China or the USA if you can, and it always will be This is not going to be solved soon as EU countries are responding to this pressure by voting for even more protectionism at the national level

Symbiote 2y ago

> In addition, the marketing is currently only in English, which is not the primary language of any EU country. Sorry Ireland...

M2Ys4U 2y ago
And Malta
- Symbiote 2y ago
  I wanted to be fair to Malta, so seeing this on Wikipedia: > A study collecting public opinion on what language was "preferred" discovered that 86 percent of the population preferred Maltese, 12 percent English, and 2 percent Italian. I thought that although English is an official language, it isn't really the primary one. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malta#Languages https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malta#Languages
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

ktosobcy 2y ago

I would love for the people to stop being ignorant and finally realise that "The UE" is not a country... it's a union of 27 diverse countries/economies/cultures... Each one having own interests so managing (and sometimes pushing) to integrate that is just plain difficult... And if you apply to much force the counterforces emerge…

markus92 2y ago

What does the author mean here when referring to customs when shipping products from within the EU to other EU countries? The EU has a customs union... The VAT per country can be a bit of a pain but is a solved problem (Shopify, Amazon, can all take care of it easily).

Ylpertnodi 2y ago
I stopped purchasing from the US as the vat gets collected - has to be in cash - by the delivery drivers. Now, i just sweep through the EU various countries (not you, UK [I do so enjoy HP sauce...no more]) to get the best deal, and get charged vat up front.

mknux 2y ago

[flagged]