3 ms·

Kickbacks have a specific meaning - a payment made in order to get business. Data rebates aren’t kick backs, they pay for something they wouldn’t otherwise get

by refurb 2y ago

Kickbacks have a specific meaning - a payment made in order to get business. Data rebates aren’t kick backs, they pay for something they wouldn’t otherwise get - patient level data. The PBMs get paid a double digit percentage of purchases as a rebate when quality data is sent back. It’s optional and PBMs can decide not to do it.

thaumasiotes 2y ago
Buying something you don't want is an extremely traditional way to launder illegal payments to the person you're buying from.
- bryanrasmussen 2y ago
  that's true - on the other hand why wouldn't you want to gather high quality data about patients using your drugs?
  - thaumasiotes 2y ago
    Most obviously, because the data isn't valuable to you. Why wouldn't you want to gather high quality data about recent Little League games? But in the case where it is valuable, and the purchasing party would really like to give some free money to the other party, we can be sure that the purchasing party is overpaying for the data anyway.
    - refurb 2y ago
      You’d be confidently incorrect. I’ve been involved in the negotiations. Pharma companies pay a couple basis points for it and are happy to walk away otherwise. It’s not a kickback, it’s fee for service. In fact there are specific Safe Harbor rules for this type of payment to avoid kickbacks.
    - bryanrasmussen 2y ago
      >Most obviously, because the data isn't valuable to you. Why wouldn't you want to gather high quality data about recent Little League games? If I was a baseball team, national baseball organization, little league team or organization of some sort I would probably want high quality data about recent little league games, hard to say because I don't know anything about little league or baseball so I am just reaching. If I have a website I want high quality data about visitors to my website, and realistically also high quality data about visitors to my competitors websites which I probably can't get but I don't want high quality data about visits to little league websites unless that is the subject my website serves. So, I would say that you and I agree - one wants to to have high quality data about things that are relevant to your business because then the high quality data is valuable to you - by definition. Given all that I repeat: why wouldn't you want to gather high quality data about patients using your drugs?

by refurb 2y ago

thaumasiotes 2y ago

Buying something you don't want is an extremely traditional way to launder illegal payments to the person you're buying from.

bryanrasmussen 2y ago
that's true - on the other hand why wouldn't you want to gather high quality data about patients using your drugs?
- thaumasiotes 2y ago
  Most obviously, because the data isn't valuable to you. Why wouldn't you want to gather high quality data about recent Little League games? But in the case where it is valuable, and the purchasing party would really like to give some free money to the other party, we can be sure that the purchasing party is overpaying for the data anyway.
  - refurb 2y ago
    You’d be confidently incorrect. I’ve been involved in the negotiations. Pharma companies pay a couple basis points for it and are happy to walk away otherwise. It’s not a kickback, it’s fee for service. In fact there are specific Safe Harbor rules for this type of payment to avoid kickbacks.
  - bryanrasmussen 2y ago
    >Most obviously, because the data isn't valuable to you. Why wouldn't you want to gather high quality data about recent Little League games? If I was a baseball team, national baseball organization, little league team or organization of some sort I would probably want high quality data about recent little league games, hard to say because I don't know anything about little league or baseball so I am just reaching. If I have a website I want high quality data about visitors to my website, and realistically also high quality data about visitors to my competitors websites which I probably can't get but I don't want high quality data about visits to little league websites unless that is the subject my website serves. So, I would say that you and I agree - one wants to to have high quality data about things that are relevant to your business because then the high quality data is valuable to you - by definition. Given all that I repeat: why wouldn't you want to gather high quality data about patients using your drugs?