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Yeah, the same crap that's been started with Youtube and has exploded on Tiktok... everything must be advertiser friendly, so instead of "suicide" it's "unalive

Yeah, the same crap that's been started with Youtube and has exploded on Tiktok... everything must be advertiser friendly, so instead of "suicide" it's "unalive" now. As societies, we have to force Google, YouTube, Tiktok and all the other algorithm-based rankers to fully disclose their ranking criteria as a first step, and then actually discuss as a society if we want to force the rankers to rank differently.

eru 2y ago
How do you do 'anything' as a society? And how do you fully disclose the ranking criteria? It's a giant pile of evershifting programs. And even if you disclosed them, that wouldn't mean normal people would understand them. Just like barely anyone understands exactly how your favourite filesystem works in the fully disclosed Linux kernel. > and then actually discuss as a society if we want to force the rankers to rank differently. Just don't use the services that seem to have rankings policies you disagree with. No need to drag other people in with your own choices 'as a society'. 'As a society' we already make laws about what's legal and what's illegal, and there's also some vague consensus (but not universally shared) about what's perhaps legal but still in bad taste. But 'as a society' we don't decide on every last thing. People should have their freedom as much as possible, the freedom to make their own decisions. Do you want to disclose exactly how you make your decisions when you are voting on HN comments? Can you even do that? A 'society' that makes all the decisions for everyone is totalitarian.
- bloqs 2y ago
  People dont understand the filesystem because it doesnt translate to pretty much immediate monetary gain, not because of complexity
- ffgjgf1 2y ago
  > How do you do 'anything' as a society? Usually by outsourcing it to some government regulatory agency > that wouldn't mean normal people would understand That’s fine, some people would and be able to explain it to others who care (minimizing the likelihood of misinformation since it would be easy to verify) > understands exactly how your favourite filesystem works in the fully disclosed Linux kernel Because it doesn’t really matter. Almost all people are entirely unaffected by this and have no reason to care > Just don't use the services that seem to have rankings policies you disagree with. Right.. doesn’t work with oligopolies/monopolies. Do you think Bing is much better? No? Well..that’s that.
  - eru 2y ago
    > Right.. doesn’t work with oligopolies/monopolies. Do you think Bing is much better? No? Well..that’s that. Barrier to entry have never been lower. Both over time, and also compared to most other industries. If you don't like any of the offerings on the market, perhaps your tastes are just not wildly shared? (And if they are, but underserved, that's a lucrative niche for a new company!)
    - ffgjgf1 2y ago
      No, the barriers to entry in this case are extremely high. Higher or about as high as they ever were. You’d be trying to compete against products into the development of which two of the biggest global corporations have invested billions over the years. Eve MS itself could barely dent Google’s market share…
miki123211 2y ago
A lot of the ranking "criteria" is essentially something like "if Alice likes foo and bar and bob likes foo, then Bob will probably also like bar, so show him bar first". A lot of properties, like the emergence of conspiracy theories or social media fueling political polarization, are a direct consequence of such rules working as intended. One doesn't need an explicit is_flat_earth_related variable to still contribute to the spread of flat earth videos and show them to those who are the most vulnerable.

eru 2y ago

How do you do 'anything' as a society? And how do you fully disclose the ranking criteria? It's a giant pile of evershifting programs. And even if you disclosed them, that wouldn't mean normal people would understand them. Just like barely anyone understands exactly how your favourite filesystem works in the fully disclosed Linux kernel. > and then actually discuss as a society if we want to force the rankers to rank differently. Just don't use the services that seem to have rankings policies you disagree with. No need to drag other people in with your own choices 'as a society'. 'As a society' we already make laws about what's legal and what's illegal, and there's also some vague consensus (but not universally shared) about what's perhaps legal but still in bad taste. But 'as a society' we don't decide on every last thing. People should have their freedom as much as possible, the freedom to make their own decisions. Do you want to disclose exactly how you make your decisions when you are voting on HN comments? Can you even do that? A 'society' that makes all the decisions for everyone is totalitarian.

bloqs 2y ago
People dont understand the filesystem because it doesnt translate to pretty much immediate monetary gain, not because of complexity
ffgjgf1 2y ago
> How do you do 'anything' as a society? Usually by outsourcing it to some government regulatory agency > that wouldn't mean normal people would understand That’s fine, some people would and be able to explain it to others who care (minimizing the likelihood of misinformation since it would be easy to verify) > understands exactly how your favourite filesystem works in the fully disclosed Linux kernel Because it doesn’t really matter. Almost all people are entirely unaffected by this and have no reason to care > Just don't use the services that seem to have rankings policies you disagree with. Right.. doesn’t work with oligopolies/monopolies. Do you think Bing is much better? No? Well..that’s that.
- eru 2y ago
  > Right.. doesn’t work with oligopolies/monopolies. Do you think Bing is much better? No? Well..that’s that. Barrier to entry have never been lower. Both over time, and also compared to most other industries. If you don't like any of the offerings on the market, perhaps your tastes are just not wildly shared? (And if they are, but underserved, that's a lucrative niche for a new company!)
  - ffgjgf1 2y ago
    No, the barriers to entry in this case are extremely high. Higher or about as high as they ever were. You’d be trying to compete against products into the development of which two of the biggest global corporations have invested billions over the years. Eve MS itself could barely dent Google’s market share…

miki123211 2y ago

A lot of the ranking "criteria" is essentially something like "if Alice likes foo and bar and bob likes foo, then Bob will probably also like bar, so show him bar first". A lot of properties, like the emergence of conspiracy theories or social media fueling political polarization, are a direct consequence of such rules working as intended. One doesn't need an explicit is_flat_earth_related variable to still contribute to the spread of flat earth videos and show them to those who are the most vulnerable.