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I suspect that despite people's familiarity with technology, it's not just maths that will hold them back in this. I taught 1st year undergrad students in Engi

I suspect that despite people's familiarity with technology, it's not just maths that will hold them back in this. I taught 1st year undergrad students in Engineering (mechanical, civil, aerospace) programming between 2014-2019, usually Python and C. We saw a rapid average decline in ability over that period in basic functionality with computers. Really first noticed it in about 2016. As in, being able to download files, move them around in Explorer on Windows or Finder on Mac, understanding nested directory structures, and find them again. There wasn't much difference in entry grades or anything between the year groups. I strongly suspect this was largely due to smartphones coming out over people's formative years and meaning that they weren't using computers as much, so coming into University and going into the workplace they'd find it much harder. The iPhone launched in 2007 and so these kids entering University in 2016 onwards would have been born in 1998 and so started to be exposed to them from primary education, whereas slightly older kids wouldn't have seen them til they were already in secondary education.

kwere 2y ago
its mostly due of computer science becoming mainstream and no more niche or for "asocial nerds". Only a selfselected minority 'back then' thinkered their afternoons around computers
Spivak 2y ago
> As in, being able to download files, move them around in Explorer on Windows or Finder on Mac, understanding nested directory structures, and find them again I mean they were using computers, just a different mode of computing. I think the take-away is that these things just aren't as intuitive as we assume they are. The filesystem is a fairly complex abstraction with an huge API that grew organically over a long period of time and the user-facing interface modeled a paper-oriented office with filing cabinets and briefcases that doesn't exist anymore. I would approach it backwards if I was teaching it today where you code in an all-in-one dev environment where the fact that say Python modules are files doesn't really matter. And then the filesysrem is presented as the way to persist data across program invocations.
- SR2Z 2y ago
  I mean, the filesystem is just hierarchical organization. It's not even really a computer skill - I remember being taught how to use an encyclopedia in school with its index. The UI is not a big deal because graphically, there are only so many ways to represent a hierarchy. Even 3d file managers are pretty intuitive because the base data structure is simple. It's really easy to use a computer when someone has already programmed it to do the things you want. It's much harder to use one as a machine that can be programmed to do anything.
_lvbh 2y ago
Similarly, in Cardiff Uni’s 1st year Software Engineering course, kids had to be given explicit instructions on how to unzip a file and some even needed help explaining what directories are
- physicsguy 2y ago
  This was Southampton, so probably similar academics standards.
  - _lvbh 2y ago
    Sure but if you’re coming in to learn computer science or software engineering, you should at least know how to use a computer. I’m really baffled how the system fails to filter them out. I’m not being malicious towards them, most drop out before getting the degree anyways

kwere 2y ago

its mostly due of computer science becoming mainstream and no more niche or for "asocial nerds". Only a selfselected minority 'back then' thinkered their afternoons around computers

Spivak 2y ago

> As in, being able to download files, move them around in Explorer on Windows or Finder on Mac, understanding nested directory structures, and find them again I mean they were using computers, just a different mode of computing. I think the take-away is that these things just aren't as intuitive as we assume they are. The filesystem is a fairly complex abstraction with an huge API that grew organically over a long period of time and the user-facing interface modeled a paper-oriented office with filing cabinets and briefcases that doesn't exist anymore. I would approach it backwards if I was teaching it today where you code in an all-in-one dev environment where the fact that say Python modules are files doesn't really matter. And then the filesysrem is presented as the way to persist data across program invocations.

SR2Z 2y ago
I mean, the filesystem is just hierarchical organization. It's not even really a computer skill - I remember being taught how to use an encyclopedia in school with its index. The UI is not a big deal because graphically, there are only so many ways to represent a hierarchy. Even 3d file managers are pretty intuitive because the base data structure is simple. It's really easy to use a computer when someone has already programmed it to do the things you want. It's much harder to use one as a machine that can be programmed to do anything.

_lvbh 2y ago

Similarly, in Cardiff Uni’s 1st year Software Engineering course, kids had to be given explicit instructions on how to unzip a file and some even needed help explaining what directories are

physicsguy 2y ago
This was Southampton, so probably similar academics standards.
- _lvbh 2y ago
  Sure but if you’re coming in to learn computer science or software engineering, you should at least know how to use a computer. I’m really baffled how the system fails to filter them out. I’m not being malicious towards them, most drop out before getting the degree anyways