4 ms·

The whole concept of the devil is problematic. It prevents reconciliation of self and denies us the chance to do better. It cheapens choice and absolves wrongdo

The whole concept of the devil is problematic. It prevents reconciliation of self and denies us the chance to do better. It cheapens choice and absolves wrongdoers of responsibility for choosing correct action. Blaming the devil for incorrect action is merely following sin with sin and hiding it all behind a lie. Stand up, take responsibility for your actions and do better. You are not a child to hide behind your mother’s skirts and blame an invisible made up evil for your actions. You are a self, responsible for your choices and accountable for your actions. There is no devil whispering in your ear, that voice is you. But the angel on your other shoulder is also you and you alone get to choose.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
GrantMoyer 2y ago
Some adaptions of Faust deal with this theme exactly (ex. Kamelot's Epica and The Black Halo, or the film The Devil's Advocate). In these adaptions, Mephistopheles makes a deal with Faust for earthly bliss or power in exchange for Faust's soul upon death. Faust willingly accepts, then chooses to further pursue this power or bliss at some personal expense, a decision he later regrets, but blames Mephistopheles for. Mephistopheles then generously offers a genuine way to alleviate his loss, which Faust distrusts and declines, and he continues to suffer while blaming Mephistopheles for the consequences of his own free choices. Eventually, after much internal conflict, Faust accepts he alone is to blame for his loss and suffering, and at that moment he is given a second chance to choose differently.
galaxyLogic 2y ago
There is no proverbial Devil. But there are people who are willing to "do Devils work". So we should not "blame the Devil". We should blame the people who do the Devil's work or let it continue. For instance slavery. Was it Devil that enslaved all the kidnapped people? No, it was Devil's co-conspirators, the slave-owners. "Devil" is a social concept and construct, and a very important one. It's not much different from asking "What would Jesus Do?"
mbivert 2y ago
> It prevents reconciliation of self and denies us the chance to do better. It's also a way to forgive yourself, and others, more easily. Don't get me wrong, I think it's fantastic to take responsibility, and I believe society would be so much better for it. But in some circumstances, some people are simply bound to fail: there are limits to how perfect one can be. I suppose we can set aside the special case where genuinely malign & vicious devils would really exist, and be in position of truly wrecking havoc!
kayodelycaon 2y ago
> There is no devil whispering in your ear, that voice is you. In general, I agree with you. But there is some nuance here. Some of us really do have devils whispering in our ears. We do not always have the agency to make correct decisions. Responsibility takes different forms. Somebody took my body and I'm left holding the consequences. No one is going to clean up this mess and I have to deal with it. Personally, I was shocked how many of friends understood what happened and offered their support. Those that understood made no attempt to "hold me responsible" for my actions.
wudangmonk 2y ago
The problem is omniscience. With that, not only do you need a villain to take the blame, you also need a special ability called free-will that gets around the omniscience issue. Otherwise the only conclusion is that your god is both good and evil and chooses who gets to experience which.
unraveller 2y ago
The concept also gives a great outline of a shifty target to be wary of that must be out manoeuvred regularly. Full control is great except when you are fooled into thinking you are in full control. Reward vectors out of our control rewire us way too easily if we don't stay wary of their power.
tbrownaw 2y ago
You seem to be claiming that having a personification of evil that gives malicious advice also necessarily implies a lack of free will to be able to reject that advice.
Xen9 2y ago
As an occultist, I would recommend you to read The Initiated Interpretation of Ceremonial magic and realize that blaming the devil can be highly rational; for were one bad at articulating themselves, would it make sense to blame themselves as whole, or the parts of themselves that is related to articulation directly? The jock who blames their lazy intellectual spirit for turning into a devil will not fallaciously believe that because they are bad at academic because they are a jock. You may ALSO want to learn about the internal family systems theory and k. sotala. Demonology: The non-science that involves programming one's own consciousness using techniques developed in computational regard for the nervous system. Demonlogy most often has a theme of destroying one's enemies: Precisely because you separate your consciousness into small spirits you become able strategically CRUSADE the enemies of yer Agency within. That will not apply to those who know not what they want, EG purpose of life; values; virtue ethics etc. similar systems. One who has no agency will not have any power within. Traditional christian interpretation makes no sense to me whatsoever unless one believes they are god; but the bible actually is perfect, for let the religion and spiritualism be God and let yourself be Jesus, and then you kill god as whole, EG all three parts like Nietsche; then you will be able to raise Jesusesque! This line of makes reincarnation myths insane, because analogy then is; your decide your values and you die that is decide them again and this repeats forever such that the only choice is to not to decide the values. I have not thought about this view yet...

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

GrantMoyer 2y ago

Some adaptions of Faust deal with this theme exactly (ex. Kamelot's Epica and The Black Halo, or the film The Devil's Advocate). In these adaptions, Mephistopheles makes a deal with Faust for earthly bliss or power in exchange for Faust's soul upon death. Faust willingly accepts, then chooses to further pursue this power or bliss at some personal expense, a decision he later regrets, but blames Mephistopheles for. Mephistopheles then generously offers a genuine way to alleviate his loss, which Faust distrusts and declines, and he continues to suffer while blaming Mephistopheles for the consequences of his own free choices. Eventually, after much internal conflict, Faust accepts he alone is to blame for his loss and suffering, and at that moment he is given a second chance to choose differently.

galaxyLogic 2y ago

There is no proverbial Devil. But there are people who are willing to "do Devils work". So we should not "blame the Devil". We should blame the people who do the Devil's work or let it continue. For instance slavery. Was it Devil that enslaved all the kidnapped people? No, it was Devil's co-conspirators, the slave-owners. "Devil" is a social concept and construct, and a very important one. It's not much different from asking "What would Jesus Do?"

mbivert 2y ago

> It prevents reconciliation of self and denies us the chance to do better. It's also a way to forgive yourself, and others, more easily. Don't get me wrong, I think it's fantastic to take responsibility, and I believe society would be so much better for it. But in some circumstances, some people are simply bound to fail: there are limits to how perfect one can be. I suppose we can set aside the special case where genuinely malign & vicious devils would really exist, and be in position of truly wrecking havoc!

kayodelycaon 2y ago

> There is no devil whispering in your ear, that voice is you. In general, I agree with you. But there is some nuance here. Some of us really do have devils whispering in our ears. We do not always have the agency to make correct decisions. Responsibility takes different forms. Somebody took my body and I'm left holding the consequences. No one is going to clean up this mess and I have to deal with it. Personally, I was shocked how many of friends understood what happened and offered their support. Those that understood made no attempt to "hold me responsible" for my actions.

wudangmonk 2y ago

The problem is omniscience. With that, not only do you need a villain to take the blame, you also need a special ability called free-will that gets around the omniscience issue. Otherwise the only conclusion is that your god is both good and evil and chooses who gets to experience which.

unraveller 2y ago

The concept also gives a great outline of a shifty target to be wary of that must be out manoeuvred regularly. Full control is great except when you are fooled into thinking you are in full control. Reward vectors out of our control rewire us way too easily if we don't stay wary of their power.

tbrownaw 2y ago

You seem to be claiming that having a personification of evil that gives malicious advice also necessarily implies a lack of free will to be able to reject that advice.

Xen9 2y ago

As an occultist, I would recommend you to read The Initiated Interpretation of Ceremonial magic and realize that blaming the devil can be highly rational; for were one bad at articulating themselves, would it make sense to blame themselves as whole, or the parts of themselves that is related to articulation directly? The jock who blames their lazy intellectual spirit for turning into a devil will not fallaciously believe that because they are bad at academic because they are a jock. You may ALSO want to learn about the internal family systems theory and k. sotala. Demonology: The non-science that involves programming one's own consciousness using techniques developed in computational regard for the nervous system. Demonlogy most often has a theme of destroying one's enemies: Precisely because you separate your consciousness into small spirits you become able strategically CRUSADE the enemies of yer Agency within. That will not apply to those who know not what they want, EG purpose of life; values; virtue ethics etc. similar systems. One who has no agency will not have any power within. Traditional christian interpretation makes no sense to me whatsoever unless one believes they are god; but the bible actually is perfect, for let the religion and spiritualism be God and let yourself be Jesus, and then you kill god as whole, EG all three parts like Nietsche; then you will be able to raise Jesusesque! This line of makes reincarnation myths insane, because analogy then is; your decide your values and you die that is decide them again and this repeats forever such that the only choice is to not to decide the values. I have not thought about this view yet...