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Just reiterates that you don't own your data hosted on cloud providers; this time there's a clear sign, but I can guarantee that google's systems read and aggre

Just reiterates that you don't own your data hosted on cloud providers; this time there's a clear sign, but I can guarantee that google's systems read and aggregated data inside your private docs ages ago. This concern was first raised when Gmail started, 20 years ago now; at the time people reeled at the idea of "google reads your emails to give you ads", but at the same time the 1 GB inbox and fresh UI was a compelling argument. I think they learned from it, and google drive and co were less "scary" or less overt with scanning the stuff you have in it, also because they wanted to get that sweet corporate money.

shadowgovt 2y ago
Of course Google reads and aggregates data inside your private docs. How would it provide search over your documents otherwise?
- dylan604 2y ago
  When I hit search, do the search right then. Don't grep out of a stored cache of prior searches.
  - shadowgovt 2y ago
    The thing that makes it possible for search to be fast is pre-crawling and pre-indexing. Some other engines don't do this, and the difference is remarkabe. Try a full-content search in Windows 7, you'll be staring at the dialog for two minutes while it tries to find a file that's in the same directory as you started the search in.
    - dylan604 2y ago
      You said nothing about fast in your original though, so now you've moved the goal posts
      - shadowgovt 2y ago
        I'm not really engaging in forensics-style debate. If you don't already know why "fast" is so integral to search as a feature that it goes without mention, I don't think we are enough on the same page to discourse on the topic.
      - intern4tional 2y ago
        I think returning results in a timely manner is more than an acceptable assumption. The poster clearly thought about search in terms of the existing Google search functionality which is near instantaneous. Usability matters to the average end user and a delayed search is not usable for most people.
- greycol 2y ago
  This feels a lot like "Of course they use their hands, they couldn't give you a massage otherwise" but it's in reply to a news article about the person who agreed to being touched being punched.
Aurornis 2y ago
> but I can guarantee that google's systems read and aggregated data inside your private docs ages ago That is how search works, yes. But if you’re trying to imply that everyone’s private data was scraped and loaded into their LLM, then no, that’s obviously a conspiracy theory. It’s incredible to me that people think Google has convinced tens of thousands of engineers to quietly keep secret an epic conspiracy theory about abusing everyone’s private data.
- psychoslave 2y ago
  > that’s obviously a conspiracy theory. Well, while some of our fellow humans are far too quick to jump on concluding that everything and the rest comes from some conspiracy, it shouldn't void the existence of any conspiracy as an extreme opposite. In that case, whether these actors do it or not is almost irrelevant: they have the means and incentives to do so. What safeguard civil society is putting in place to avoid it to happen is a far more interesting matter.
- zarathustreal 2y ago
  To riff on the famous Upton Sinclair quote: “It is difficult to get an engineer to see something, when his salary depends on his not seeing it.”
- fifteen1506 2y ago
  > It’s incredible to me that people think Google has convinced tens of thousands of engineers to quietly keep secret an epic conspiracy theory about abusing everyone’s private data. With NDA being all over the place, it does strike me as doable. NDAs should have a time limit. Additionally, no-one in their right mind will be a whistleblower nowadays.
  - digitalsushi 2y ago
    isn't that it's supposed to work? we just need >0 people to blow a whistle if a whistle needs blowing. we don't need to rely on the people fearing for their jobs so long as >0 people are willing to sacrifice their careers/lives when there's some injustice so great it's worth dying for
foobarian 2y ago
One time I booked something on Expedia, which resulted in an itinerary email to my Gmail account. Lo and behold, minutes later I got a native CTA on the Android home screen to set up some thing or another on Google’s trip product. I dropped Android since, but Gmail is proving harder to shake.
mark_l_watson 2y ago
re: data on cloud providers: I trust ProtonDrive to not use my data because it is encrypted in transit and in place. Apple now encrypts most data in transit and in place also, and they document which data is protected. I am up in the air on whether a future Apple will want to use my data for training public models. Apple’s design of pre trained core LLMs, with local training of pluggable fine tuning layers would seem to be fine, privacy wise, but I don’t really know. I tend to trust the privacy of Google Drive less because I have authorized access to drive from Colab Pro, and a few third parties. That said, if this article is true, then less trust. Your analogy with early Gmail is good. I got access to Gmail three years before it became public (Peter Norvig gave me an early private invite) and I liked, at the time, very relevant ads next to my Gmail. I also, gave Google AI plus (or whatever they called their $20/month service) full access to all my Google properties because I wanted to experiment with the usefulness of LLMs integrated into a Workplace type environment. So, I have on my own volition surrendered privacy if Google properties.
- dylan604 2y ago
  All it takes is a "simple" typo in the code that checks if the user has granted access to their content. Something as amateur (which I still find myself occasionally doing) as "if (allowInvasiveScanning = true)" that goes "undetected" for any period of time gives them the a way out yet still gains them access to all the things. Just scanning these docs one time is all they need.

shadowgovt 2y ago

Of course Google reads and aggregates data inside your private docs. How would it provide search over your documents otherwise?

dylan604 2y ago
When I hit search, do the search right then. Don't grep out of a stored cache of prior searches.
- shadowgovt 2y ago
  The thing that makes it possible for search to be fast is pre-crawling and pre-indexing. Some other engines don't do this, and the difference is remarkabe. Try a full-content search in Windows 7, you'll be staring at the dialog for two minutes while it tries to find a file that's in the same directory as you started the search in.
  - dylan604 2y ago
    You said nothing about fast in your original though, so now you've moved the goal posts
    - shadowgovt 2y ago
      I'm not really engaging in forensics-style debate. If you don't already know why "fast" is so integral to search as a feature that it goes without mention, I don't think we are enough on the same page to discourse on the topic.
    - intern4tional 2y ago
      I think returning results in a timely manner is more than an acceptable assumption. The poster clearly thought about search in terms of the existing Google search functionality which is near instantaneous. Usability matters to the average end user and a delayed search is not usable for most people.
greycol 2y ago
This feels a lot like "Of course they use their hands, they couldn't give you a massage otherwise" but it's in reply to a news article about the person who agreed to being touched being punched.

Aurornis 2y ago

> but I can guarantee that google's systems read and aggregated data inside your private docs ages ago That is how search works, yes. But if you’re trying to imply that everyone’s private data was scraped and loaded into their LLM, then no, that’s obviously a conspiracy theory. It’s incredible to me that people think Google has convinced tens of thousands of engineers to quietly keep secret an epic conspiracy theory about abusing everyone’s private data.

psychoslave 2y ago
> that’s obviously a conspiracy theory. Well, while some of our fellow humans are far too quick to jump on concluding that everything and the rest comes from some conspiracy, it shouldn't void the existence of any conspiracy as an extreme opposite. In that case, whether these actors do it or not is almost irrelevant: they have the means and incentives to do so. What safeguard civil society is putting in place to avoid it to happen is a far more interesting matter.
zarathustreal 2y ago
To riff on the famous Upton Sinclair quote: “It is difficult to get an engineer to see something, when his salary depends on his not seeing it.”
fifteen1506 2y ago
> It’s incredible to me that people think Google has convinced tens of thousands of engineers to quietly keep secret an epic conspiracy theory about abusing everyone’s private data. With NDA being all over the place, it does strike me as doable. NDAs should have a time limit. Additionally, no-one in their right mind will be a whistleblower nowadays.
- digitalsushi 2y ago
  isn't that it's supposed to work? we just need >0 people to blow a whistle if a whistle needs blowing. we don't need to rely on the people fearing for their jobs so long as >0 people are willing to sacrifice their careers/lives when there's some injustice so great it's worth dying for

foobarian 2y ago

One time I booked something on Expedia, which resulted in an itinerary email to my Gmail account. Lo and behold, minutes later I got a native CTA on the Android home screen to set up some thing or another on Google’s trip product. I dropped Android since, but Gmail is proving harder to shake.

mark_l_watson 2y ago

re: data on cloud providers: I trust ProtonDrive to not use my data because it is encrypted in transit and in place. Apple now encrypts most data in transit and in place also, and they document which data is protected. I am up in the air on whether a future Apple will want to use my data for training public models. Apple’s design of pre trained core LLMs, with local training of pluggable fine tuning layers would seem to be fine, privacy wise, but I don’t really know. I tend to trust the privacy of Google Drive less because I have authorized access to drive from Colab Pro, and a few third parties. That said, if this article is true, then less trust. Your analogy with early Gmail is good. I got access to Gmail three years before it became public (Peter Norvig gave me an early private invite) and I liked, at the time, very relevant ads next to my Gmail. I also, gave Google AI plus (or whatever they called their $20/month service) full access to all my Google properties because I wanted to experiment with the usefulness of LLMs integrated into a Workplace type environment. So, I have on my own volition surrendered privacy if Google properties.

dylan604 2y ago
All it takes is a "simple" typo in the code that checks if the user has granted access to their content. Something as amateur (which I still find myself occasionally doing) as "if (allowInvasiveScanning = true)" that goes "undetected" for any period of time gives them the a way out yet still gains them access to all the things. Just scanning these docs one time is all they need.