7 ms·

It's not supposed to be funny. The shock twist of it being cannibalism is supposed to make you think about the nature of default cultural assumptions and meta-e

by gwern 2y ago

It's not supposed to be funny. The shock twist of it being cannibalism is supposed to make you think about the nature of default cultural assumptions and meta-ethics: "what factors Tardo would consider significant—probably very minor ones that the average man would not notice, he thought", and which the host fails to think of despite attempting to hide the slavery & cannibalism, in the same way that you might serve a visitor from India cow steak. (The author was from Brazil, incidentally, which may be relevant to how you interpret this: https://sf-encyclopedia.com/entry/fontenay_charles_l https://sf-encyclopedia.com/entry/fontenay_charles_l )

6510 2y ago
Maybe funny isn't the right word for you, I mean the story would be better if it encouraged the reader to think for themselves. How do we know it wasn't a placenta in delicate wine sauce? I don't object to our culture, I grew up in it, I don't know any better. Killing animals for food is accepted, cannibalism is not. I have no reason to object to burials, we prefer to be eaten by worms underground. That said, I have no objective explanation why others must follow this example. It reminds me of a lunch at work, a Muslim points to their dish and says you are not eating pork are you? The Hindu points at his plate and says: cows are sacred to us. They rolled their eyes and didn't know how to progress the conversation. I jokingly told them: we eat everything! Do you also eat people the Muslim asked. I thought for a bit and said, it depends on the situation. He said, that is true, if there is nothing else we are also allowed to eat pork... and everything else. Likewise, Christianity is also fine with it provided it is forced by necessity. I talk with 2 angry vegetarians one time who argued that we don't kill animals for food, there is plenty of food. When asked about nutrition they said no one needs that much meat. You are killing animals purely for pleasure. A surprising revelation, they were right!?! I ended the conversation by asking: What has that broccoli ever done to you? It remains of course a terrible concept in the more atheistic world view but would it be more horrific than people eating sacred animals? The story is that they had quite the hard time surviving on their planet. If people die trying to survive and there is no other food. Should one chose to die from starvation? Should I be the one to judge here? I see room for cultural normalization. If someone dies from an accident and you have to plow the fields by hand with half a carrot to eat, it might be required. The Solar Council is primarily interested in putting its own arrogance on display. Its Planetary Aid agent doesn't give a flying fuck about the slaves. That much is obvious. To bad Gwern, looks like we will be pulling the plow again tomorrow. Thanks for nothing Solar Council! > "My recommendation will be of considerable importance to you," said Tardo as they ate. "If it is favorable, there is certain technical aid aboard ship which will be made available to you at once. Of course, you will not receive advanced equipment from the Solar Council until there is a more thorough investigation." Dude, advanced equipment? All I wanted was a few oxen and some chickens.
- Dr_Birdbrain 2y ago
  I agree with your last point—the Solar Council should have provided conditional aid. The most basic assistance could have removed the justification for cannibalism.
  - shkkmo 2y ago
    But would removing the justification really mater given the entrenched power structure that has grown dependant on a certain way of veiwing other humans? The cannibalism is not the primary issue, but is a clear indicator that the inspectors have been lied to and slavery is present, which was previously clearly established as one of the major disqualifying cultural traits.
    - iftheshoefitss 2y ago
      [dead]
- rexpop 2y ago
  > What has that broccoli ever done to you? False equivalence; generally disingenuous. You're a troll?
  - iftheshoefitss 2y ago
    [flagged]
  - teapot7 2y ago
    That's rather evasive. The broccoli must have done something quite traumatic.
- shkkmo 2y ago
  > The Solar Council is primarily interested in putting its own arrogance on display. Its Planetary Aid agent doesn't give a flying fuck about the slaves. That much is obvious. That isn't entirely clear. There is a lot of context that is elided. Given the time frame, clonized 1000 years ago and this is the first ship ever to visit, transit costs can reasonably be assumed to be very high and the resources available to assist each colony may be low. The lack of livestock when founding a colony is not unique to this colony but was ubiquitous at the time it was founded. Presumably the approach to lack of livestock is also not unique. It is an entirely plausible that the Solar Council has tried various approaches and reached the conclusion that attempting to change or assist such culures externally is a waste of limited resources and/or actively harmful. The underlying issue is not the cannibalism, since the Solar Council agent ate the meal and presumably knew or at least suspected when the colony was established. The issue is the way those in power treat their subclass. Attempting to fundamentally change a planetary scale civilization with limited resources is not something we can safely asssume is feasible.
js2 2y ago
Spoilers. :-(
- Arainach 2y ago
  If you're worried about spoilers for something, why would you be reading the comments discussing it?
- iftheshoefitss 2y ago
  [dead]
- cess11 2y ago
  This highly influential story was published in 1954.
dzink 2y ago
The lesson is to look for what’s missing and hidden.
- hef19898 2y ago
  True on so many levels, and most of the time ignored.

by gwern 2y ago

6510 2y ago

Maybe funny isn't the right word for you, I mean the story would be better if it encouraged the reader to think for themselves. How do we know it wasn't a placenta in delicate wine sauce? I don't object to our culture, I grew up in it, I don't know any better. Killing animals for food is accepted, cannibalism is not. I have no reason to object to burials, we prefer to be eaten by worms underground. That said, I have no objective explanation why others must follow this example. It reminds me of a lunch at work, a Muslim points to their dish and says you are not eating pork are you? The Hindu points at his plate and says: cows are sacred to us. They rolled their eyes and didn't know how to progress the conversation. I jokingly told them: we eat everything! Do you also eat people the Muslim asked. I thought for a bit and said, it depends on the situation. He said, that is true, if there is nothing else we are also allowed to eat pork... and everything else. Likewise, Christianity is also fine with it provided it is forced by necessity. I talk with 2 angry vegetarians one time who argued that we don't kill animals for food, there is plenty of food. When asked about nutrition they said no one needs that much meat. You are killing animals purely for pleasure. A surprising revelation, they were right!?! I ended the conversation by asking: What has that broccoli ever done to you? It remains of course a terrible concept in the more atheistic world view but would it be more horrific than people eating sacred animals? The story is that they had quite the hard time surviving on their planet. If people die trying to survive and there is no other food. Should one chose to die from starvation? Should I be the one to judge here? I see room for cultural normalization. If someone dies from an accident and you have to plow the fields by hand with half a carrot to eat, it might be required. The Solar Council is primarily interested in putting its own arrogance on display. Its Planetary Aid agent doesn't give a flying fuck about the slaves. That much is obvious. To bad Gwern, looks like we will be pulling the plow again tomorrow. Thanks for nothing Solar Council! > "My recommendation will be of considerable importance to you," said Tardo as they ate. "If it is favorable, there is certain technical aid aboard ship which will be made available to you at once. Of course, you will not receive advanced equipment from the Solar Council until there is a more thorough investigation." Dude, advanced equipment? All I wanted was a few oxen and some chickens.

Dr_Birdbrain 2y ago
I agree with your last point—the Solar Council should have provided conditional aid. The most basic assistance could have removed the justification for cannibalism.
- shkkmo 2y ago
  But would removing the justification really mater given the entrenched power structure that has grown dependant on a certain way of veiwing other humans? The cannibalism is not the primary issue, but is a clear indicator that the inspectors have been lied to and slavery is present, which was previously clearly established as one of the major disqualifying cultural traits.
  - iftheshoefitss 2y ago
    [dead]
rexpop 2y ago
> What has that broccoli ever done to you? False equivalence; generally disingenuous. You're a troll?
- iftheshoefitss 2y ago
  [flagged]
- teapot7 2y ago
  That's rather evasive. The broccoli must have done something quite traumatic.
shkkmo 2y ago
> The Solar Council is primarily interested in putting its own arrogance on display. Its Planetary Aid agent doesn't give a flying fuck about the slaves. That much is obvious. That isn't entirely clear. There is a lot of context that is elided. Given the time frame, clonized 1000 years ago and this is the first ship ever to visit, transit costs can reasonably be assumed to be very high and the resources available to assist each colony may be low. The lack of livestock when founding a colony is not unique to this colony but was ubiquitous at the time it was founded. Presumably the approach to lack of livestock is also not unique. It is an entirely plausible that the Solar Council has tried various approaches and reached the conclusion that attempting to change or assist such culures externally is a waste of limited resources and/or actively harmful. The underlying issue is not the cannibalism, since the Solar Council agent ate the meal and presumably knew or at least suspected when the colony was established. The issue is the way those in power treat their subclass. Attempting to fundamentally change a planetary scale civilization with limited resources is not something we can safely asssume is feasible.

js2 2y ago

Spoilers. :-(

Arainach 2y ago
If you're worried about spoilers for something, why would you be reading the comments discussing it?
iftheshoefitss 2y ago
[dead]
cess11 2y ago
This highly influential story was published in 1954.

dzink 2y ago

The lesson is to look for what’s missing and hidden.

hef19898 2y ago
True on so many levels, and most of the time ignored.