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California Grid Breezes Through Heatwave with Batteries
- ChuckMcM 2y agoThis is an interesting data point. Grid scale batteries are a pretty big change in how grids are managed, things like "anticipating load" and starting up "peaker plants" to catch that load are mitigated by the ability to wait and see while the batteries fill in the gap.
- toomuchtodo 2y agoBatteries charge for free when renewables push spot prices to zero or negative and discharge when most needed and getting paid to do so; they comin’ for fossil gas generation that pays to burn (fuel) and spin (per hour O&M).
- _Microft 2y agoThey might even be paid for consuming power because that provides stability to the grid [0] in such a situation. Too little load causes the frequency on the grid to rise which is only acceptable within narrow limits. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancillary_services_(electric_power) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancillary_services_(electric_p...
- toomuchtodo 2y agoAbsolutely, there is no doubt that are stealing grid service revenue from spinning thermal, and they also provide black start services (jump starting larger generators when they go out through an isolated transmission path).
- applied_heat 2y agoI was under the impression that “grid forming” as opposed to “grid following” inverters were not a solved problem. Can you cite any battery plant with documented tests of energizing transmission or distribution systems?
- toomuchtodo 2y agohttps://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2021-03-08/tesla-is-plugging-a-secret-mega-battery-into-the-texas-grid https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2021-03-08/tesla-is-... | https://archive.today/xU9Kg https://archive.today/xU9Kg https://www.ercot.com/files/docs/2024/01/12/Tesla%20BESS%20Grid%20Forming%20and%20Augmentation_ERCOT.pdf https://www.ercot.com/files/docs/2024/01/12/Tesla%20BESS%20G... Gambit Energy, owned by Tesla in Texas. Megapack supports grid forming in production (Hawaii and South Australia installations as well). “Virtual Machine Mode.” It is solved, which shouldn’t be controversial considering Tesla’s power control maturity.
- applied_heat 2y agoThanks for the link, looks like it is new development in the last 2 years which is the blink of an eye in utility timeframes.
- toomuchtodo 2y agoHappy to help, another link you might find useful on the topic. https://cleantechnica.com/2024/07/14/new-grid-forming-inverter-models-help-utilities-plan-for-a-renewable-future/ https://cleantechnica.com/2024/07/14/new-grid-forming-invert...
- wumeow 2y agoCompare and contrast with Texas.
- batch12 2y agoOr with past California
- toomuchtodo 2y agohttps://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40908526 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40908526
- gretch 2y agoWhy? Why does this new innovation in the california grid have to be all about dunking on texas? (As a californian) It's especially annoying coming from anyone californian, the state of Enron and PGE wildfires. Like we are so caught up in the vanity of comparison that we quickly rush to forgive our past sins while condemning the mistakes of others for forever and ever. How about as technologists, we just focus on innovating (which is not a zero sum game) and we don't compare ourselves to people who aren't doing as well.
- baq 2y agoI’m in Europe and I can pick on Texas all day on energy. The separate grid is a self-inflicted gunshot wound in both feet.
- spacedcowboy 2y agoWell, they do like their guns in Texas
- bravetraveler 2y agoI live in Texas and support your message. We get cheap power and have cheap results [under stress] to show for it, repeatedly
- Dma54rhs 2y ago
- bryanlarsen 2y agoBatteries are absolutely destroying demand for natural gas in California: https://reneweconomy.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/california-gas-903x500.jpg https://reneweconomy.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/calif...
- tuetnsuppe 2y agoHow does this graph consider that 2024 isn’t over, yet, unlike the other years? Otherwise looks promising. Edit: just saw this is only for April of each year. But similar question: can we extrapolate from April to say November or not?
- telotortium 2y agoYou can't directly extrapolate from April to November. April is generally the optimal month in California for renewable generation (days are long enough, rainy season is drawing to a close, not too cold or hot, and summer fog from the oceans hasn't started), so the graph is definitely showing the best case. Nonetheless, with more battery installs, we can almost certainly bank the majority of power needs all year round in California.
- infecto 2y agoLove this graph, really demonstrates the power of low cost solar and increasingly lower cost batteries.
- IvyMike 2y agoThere's a future issue looming: at some point, a lot of the natural gas peaker plants build for 2021 capacity will be idle almost all of the time. (Based on how often my local peaker plant seems to run, that may actually already be the case). Keeping peaker plants around and having them ready year round for just a few days use is going to feel expensive; but decommissioning the plants too early has its own risks.
- bryanlarsen 2y agoCalifornia has a capacity payment mechanism for this reason.
- z_rex 2y agoI work in the power generation industry. The large scale introduction of Battery Storage is going to be a game changer for renewables since it will allow overproduction during the day to be stored for the evening peak. I think the current fad of peaking plants is somewhat overblown, as the average large scale battery storage system will not face the issues with starting reliability that can be present on large gas turbine power plants, which not only affect the grid but can be very expensive as a failed starts consumes large amounts of fuel to no effect. In the end, this will drive carbon-producing power capabilities to largely only run during the night when solar is out of service.
- hinkley 2y agoWon’t it also be useful for power transportation as well? Since batteries on the usage side of a bottleneck can peak shave and trough fill to levellize the load?
- DrBazza 2y agoWhy can't anywhere that has significant elevation should just pumped storage of water during the day and use hydro on the way back down?
- mariebks 2y agoI’m not an expert on this topic, but I think it comes down to cost and scalability. You have to construct a new project with custom specs for the exact site you’re on, and the permitting for a large environmental change is another drag. For large scale batteries, they all are a somewhat complex power electronic wrapper around mass produced battery cell cans or pouches that can be dropped anywhere. The cost declines of batteries are undeniable and are not stopping anytime soon.
- jopsen 2y agoNot to mentioned all the dirty cheap second hand batteries becoming available as electric cars are scrapped. For grid storage second hand batteries might be fine. If taking them out of a scrapped car is feasible.
- jeffbee 2y agoFission stans in shambles. https://observablehq.com/@jwb/caiso-battery-discharge-history https://observablehq.com/@jwb/caiso-battery-discharge-histor...
- AnthonyMouse 2y agoIt's weird that you're talking about fission when the thing the batteries are really replacing is natural gas peaker plants. Peak shaving (i.e. the thing storage is best at) is essentially the opposite of baseload. It gets you over the hump where the demand peak is after sunset but you don't want to have a 100% nuclear grid overbuilt to meet the peak demand that occurs when solar generation is zero, and you also want to stop using natural gas. You still need something to generate power when the load is back to baseline and the peak shaving batteries are dry but it's 8 more hours until sunrise. Especially if we're going to electrify heating loads that currently use fossil fuels, which are higher at night and higher during the part of the year when solar generation is lowest.
- jeffbee 2y ago"Baseload" doesn't exist. It can't hurt you. The sum of a bunch of intermittent sources is sufficient.
- AnthonyMouse 2y ago"Baseload" clearly exists. There is a minimum load on the grid that it never falls below, which can be satisfied by constant-output generation methods that aren't as well suited to varying output, but also don't vary output and so can't don't create a shortfall when low output periods in variable sources last for longer than the usual amount of time or coincide with high demand. > The sum of a bunch of intermittent sources is sufficient. That only works if the intermittent sources are independent. In winter, solar output is going to be lower during the day than in summer, zero at night, you will have more hours of night, and heating load is both higher in winter and higher at night. There aren't going to be panels on one solar farm where this is the case and others that produce more, it will be true for the entire hemisphere for the entire season. You're then left relying on wind if you don't want to use nuclear, but wind costs more than solar, and now you're lacking independence again. Weather is regional. There will be days when it's still and cold across a thousand square miles. Even batteries that could hypothetically take the load for a night are not going to have anything left by the end of a week of that, so you either need baseload generation methods or some currently unproven/uneconomical ultra high capacity long-term storage system or the week when that happens the power will go out and people will freeze.
- pokstad 2y agoNo heat wave in SoCal yet. Let me know when the grid breezes through all of LA and OC having a heatwave.
- jeffbee 2y agoIt was 121º in Palm Springs and 100º in Riverside last Monday. I don't know what the population-weighted temperature was that day but that's pretty hot?
- User23 2y agoMeanwhile the San Diego heatwave is a scorching two degrees above average at 78 degrees[1]. Now if the Santa Anas start blowing during one of these inland heatwaves and the grid still holds up that will be great. [1] If this sounds like sarcasm, try living in coastal San Diego for a few years. You really acclimate to the perfect weather and 78 really does feel awfully hot. To say nothing of those freezes where it dips into the 60s. I’ve seen bar patios turn the heaters on then.
- 0cf8612b2e1e 2y agoIt is essentially everything but costal San Diego that has been melting. Even 20 miles difference from the coast shows a huge spike in temperatures.
- mullingitover 2y agoSocal and the general southwest has been setting records[1]. Some highlights: > Palmdale and Lancaster on Tuesday experienced a record sixth straight day of temperatures at or above 110 degrees, surpassing the prior record of three days for both Antelope Valley cities. But wait, there’s more — officials say the streak is expected to continue the rest of the week, with highs forecast over 110 until Friday. > Las Vegas on Sunday smashed its record high temperature by three degrees, hitting 120 for the first time since record-keeping began in 1937. > Las Vegas is also expected to break its all-time record for consecutive days at or above 110 degrees, on its way there with six days in a row Tuesday. It’s forecast to remain just as hot through next week, which would beat the prior 10-day streak. > Palm Springs on Friday hit 124 degrees, its highest temperature in recorded history. [1] https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2024-07-09/temperature-records-shattered-west-coast-heat-wave https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2024-07-09/temperat...
- petulla 2y agoHope other states follow. The fact Arizona is still 80%+ non-renewable is just such a missed opportunity.
- inamberclad 2y agoArizona is a great case where agrovoltaics could really work. Solar reduces the sun load to something reasonable and minimizes evaporation, plants cool the air under the panels. Human / nature infrastructure symbiosis.
- ZeroGravitas 2y agoRecent local news story on this: "Arizona farmers turn to solar panels to shade crops, save water and generate power" https://cronkitenews.azpbs.org/2024/07/08/arizona-drought-solar-farming-aids-agriculture/ https://cronkitenews.azpbs.org/2024/07/08/arizona-drought-so...
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- testfoobar 2y agoThe big wattage numbers are great - but it is unclear how many watt-hours can be supplied - how many hours can California's grid run with batteries? It appears that the batteries are 4 hour batteries. Two questions: is there excess solar capacity in the winter to charge the batteries? How do the batteries perform in the winter - total storage capacity and discharge rate? It is misleading to compare a battery array that lasts for 4 hours to a nuclear powered electric plant that supplies energy at a constant 24/7. https://www.pv-magazine.com/2024/05/01/california-crosses-10-gw-battery-storage-threshold/ https://www.pv-magazine.com/2024/05/01/california-crosses-10... "Developers plan to add 6,813 MW of battery projects in the California Independent System Operator's (CAISO) domain this year, dominated by four-hour lithium-ion systems, roughly double their additions in 2023, according to an analysis of S&P Global Market Intelligence data."
- jeffbee 2y agoBecause of the regulatory/economic regime the state has established, all of these plants are 4h plants, or 4Wh/W if you prefer. That's the number they need to hit to get the top-tier payout from the grid operator.
- skybrian 2y agoI suppose they could discharge slower, though, if eventually there's not as much demand?
- csdreamer7 2y ago> It is misleading to compare a battery array that lasts for 4 hours to a nuclear powered electric plant that supplies energy at a constant 24/7. It is misleading to compare the two: * One has no risk of a nuclear meltdown in a very earthquake prone area (California). * One does not have 60+ year long successful history of lobbying governments and establishing regulatory capture (note I wrote 'successful') * one does have issue where they do not reprocess spent fuel adding billions of risk of nuclear fuel leaking into the environment; or if they do recycle, risk creating material for nuclear weapons. * one would struggle with it's strong baseline, yet inflexible power generation without batteries to handle afternoon peaks Keeping hearing random arguments for nuclear fission power (why not tidal?) and yet the regulatory capture and earthquake issue is still present in the US. We moved away from nuclear power after Japan's meltdown for a reason. With recent Supreme Court decisions and fracking causing earthquakes in Nebraska it has only gotten worse. I do not trust the industry with nuclear power. California spent a lot of money to establish a working grid that can be used for sustainable power until we get useful fusion (or that big supervolcano hits). Nuclear power is more needed in Texas right now, with it's broken grid, than California. More information on reprocessing nuclear waste: https://www.projectoptimist.us/why-us-doesnt-recycle-spent-nuclear-fuel/ https://www.projectoptimist.us/why-us-doesnt-recycle-spent-n... https://thebulletin.org/2019/07/recycle-everything-america-except-your-nuclear-waste/ https://thebulletin.org/2019/07/recycle-everything-america-e...
- cletus 2y agoHere are some useful graphs showing how electricty demand varies by region, month and time of day [1]. As expected, California peaks in July because there's more demand for cooling than heating. But what's a little surprising is that July is peak demand for every region. There are many reasons why solar is so attractive as a power source, including: 1. It's the only form of power with direct electricty generation. There's no heating water to turn a turbine; 2. Solar basically has no moving parts. You can point panels towards the Sun to increase efficiency but the panel itself and transmission has no moving parts; 3. Solar panels continue to massively reduce in price and increase in efficiency and it's not clear where this ends; 4. Obviously solar generates its pwower when the Sun is shining. This conincides with when most power is usedk. Adding solar to the power generation mix reduces the peak load required to generate from other sources; 5. Solar installations can be really small, including on individual houses, reducing the transmission capacity required for last-mile and regional power transport. Batteries are just one method to store excess power for variable (renewable) energy sources. Another is carbon sequestration to create fuel directly, called Carbon Capture and Storage ("CCS") [2]. This isn't economic yet. But it may have applications in, say, cold climates where battery performance noticeably degrades. Solar power is the future. [1]: https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=42915 https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=42915 [2]: https://www.iisd.org/articles/deep-dive/why-carbon-capture-storage-cost-remains-high https://www.iisd.org/articles/deep-dive/why-carbon-capture-s...
- candiddevmike 2y ago> But what's a little surprising is that July is peak demand for every region. Majority of homes use natural gas for heating in the winter. If they used electric heat instead, the difference would be enormous.
- AnthonyMouse 2y agoMore to the point, we want them to use electricity for heat instead. Heat pumps are quite efficient and natural gas emits CO2. But contrary to air conditioning load, heating load is inverse to sunlight, so we need a way to supply that electricity at night.
- gumby 2y agoThe distribution grid did not do as well — lots of outages in the sierras and points north.
- xnx 2y agoI was confused until I realized title omits "renewables". Having peak solar demand during peak air conditioning demand is beautiful harmony.
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- dada78641 2y ago"The uploader has not made this video available in your country." First video on the page. I'm guessing this is probably a news report, right?
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