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Right now I'm in this goofy spot where I'm probably walking away from it. Nobody wants backend and API-layer Java devs anymore. They probably need them, but the

Right now I'm in this goofy spot where I'm probably walking away from it. Nobody wants backend and API-layer Java devs anymore. They probably need them, but they don't know it in the midst of the AI bubble.

beacon294 2y ago
It's actually still super popular at many or most large companies. Not small companies.
- Tao3300 2y ago
  That's what I'd have thought, but it's looking bleak. Who do you have in mind?
  - SoftTalker 2y ago
    Look for corporate jobs outside of California/SV-type places. Financial firms, insurance companies, also universities. You won't be blazing any new trails and you might be shocked by the pay difference but you'll work 9-5 with your weekends free and probably good benefits. You'll have to be able to tolerate some level of Initech-style management but if you just accept that and play along the work pace is pretty relaxed.
    - relaxing 2y ago
      I’ve reached the point where every time I see a comment about “nobody wants to hire X programmers”, in my mind I append “… at hot SV startups” because that must be the only way it’s true.
      - Tao3300 2y ago
        Heh, good for you! I can't wait til I'm at that point too.
- jillesvangurp 2y ago
  A lot of those companies are either looking like they'll never change (e.g. banks) or are actively transitioning to things like Kotlin. I've made that transition myself and at this point I'm seeing a lot of signs that this was the right move. E.g. Facebook, Google, Amazon, and others have used a lot of Java in the last twenty years and many of their teams are transitioning to Kotlin at this point (each of them have talked about this in public). With many millions of lines of code that's a slow transition obviously but Kotlin is apparently the goto choice for a lot of new stuff. Java is turning into the Cobol of our generation. People will still be doing this for a long time. But not a lot of young people are likely to want to do that. It's not an obvious choice for new projects at this point.
  - pjmlp 2y ago
    Kotlin isn't really used as much as people think outside Android, besides it is useless without the Java ecosystem it depends on, in a platform written in a mix of Java and C++. https://learnhub.top/the-most-in-demand-programming-languages-in-2024/ https://learnhub.top/the-most-in-demand-programming-language... https://newrelic.com/resources/report/2024-state-of-the-java-ecosystem https://newrelic.com/resources/report/2024-state-of-the-java... https://www.itpro.com/careers/29133/the-top-programming-languages-you-need-to-learn https://www.itpro.com/careers/29133/the-top-programming-lang...
    - jillesvangurp 2y ago
      Actually, I use Kotlin in a browser using Kotlin multi platform. Things are changing rapidly and you can do a lot without any Java libraries whatsoever at this point. The multiplatform ecosystem is growing very rapidly now. Also, you might want to read up on how Amazon, Google, Facebook and other companies are moving to Kotlin internally at scale for server side use. They've been pretty vocal about that. A lot of Java shops are of course a bit glacial in their adoption of new technology. That's why I refer to it as the new Cobol. That has less to do with the language and more to do that this kind of companies simply don't change very easily. You'll find some actual Cobol lurking in a lot of these companies as well probably. Kotlin was originally developed to be a drop in replacement for Java in any Java project. Android developers embraced it in a hurry because they were stuck with a relatively old and crappy version of Java because of the whole Oracle law suit with Google. Google made that official shortly after Kotlin 1.0 released acknowledging that many Android developers were voting with their feet at that point already. They also just embraced Kotlin multi platform at Google IO a few months ago. On the server side, people have been using Kotlin for about as long. But things move more slowly there. Spring launched their Kotlin support around Spring Boot 2.0. That's six years ago already. It worked fine before that but that's the moment they started shipping lots of out of the box Kotlin support. Frankly, if you are using Spring and not using Kotlin, you're missing out big time. Lots of companies of course insist on doing things the verbose and hard way with Java.
kridsdale3 2y ago
Google does.

beacon294 2y ago

It's actually still super popular at many or most large companies. Not small companies.

Tao3300 2y ago
That's what I'd have thought, but it's looking bleak. Who do you have in mind?
- SoftTalker 2y ago
  Look for corporate jobs outside of California/SV-type places. Financial firms, insurance companies, also universities. You won't be blazing any new trails and you might be shocked by the pay difference but you'll work 9-5 with your weekends free and probably good benefits. You'll have to be able to tolerate some level of Initech-style management but if you just accept that and play along the work pace is pretty relaxed.
  - relaxing 2y ago
    I’ve reached the point where every time I see a comment about “nobody wants to hire X programmers”, in my mind I append “… at hot SV startups” because that must be the only way it’s true.
    - Tao3300 2y ago
      Heh, good for you! I can't wait til I'm at that point too.
jillesvangurp 2y ago
A lot of those companies are either looking like they'll never change (e.g. banks) or are actively transitioning to things like Kotlin. I've made that transition myself and at this point I'm seeing a lot of signs that this was the right move. E.g. Facebook, Google, Amazon, and others have used a lot of Java in the last twenty years and many of their teams are transitioning to Kotlin at this point (each of them have talked about this in public). With many millions of lines of code that's a slow transition obviously but Kotlin is apparently the goto choice for a lot of new stuff. Java is turning into the Cobol of our generation. People will still be doing this for a long time. But not a lot of young people are likely to want to do that. It's not an obvious choice for new projects at this point.
- pjmlp 2y ago
  Kotlin isn't really used as much as people think outside Android, besides it is useless without the Java ecosystem it depends on, in a platform written in a mix of Java and C++. https://learnhub.top/the-most-in-demand-programming-languages-in-2024/ https://learnhub.top/the-most-in-demand-programming-language... https://newrelic.com/resources/report/2024-state-of-the-java-ecosystem https://newrelic.com/resources/report/2024-state-of-the-java... https://www.itpro.com/careers/29133/the-top-programming-languages-you-need-to-learn https://www.itpro.com/careers/29133/the-top-programming-lang...
  - jillesvangurp 2y ago
    Actually, I use Kotlin in a browser using Kotlin multi platform. Things are changing rapidly and you can do a lot without any Java libraries whatsoever at this point. The multiplatform ecosystem is growing very rapidly now. Also, you might want to read up on how Amazon, Google, Facebook and other companies are moving to Kotlin internally at scale for server side use. They've been pretty vocal about that. A lot of Java shops are of course a bit glacial in their adoption of new technology. That's why I refer to it as the new Cobol. That has less to do with the language and more to do that this kind of companies simply don't change very easily. You'll find some actual Cobol lurking in a lot of these companies as well probably. Kotlin was originally developed to be a drop in replacement for Java in any Java project. Android developers embraced it in a hurry because they were stuck with a relatively old and crappy version of Java because of the whole Oracle law suit with Google. Google made that official shortly after Kotlin 1.0 released acknowledging that many Android developers were voting with their feet at that point already. They also just embraced Kotlin multi platform at Google IO a few months ago. On the server side, people have been using Kotlin for about as long. But things move more slowly there. Spring launched their Kotlin support around Spring Boot 2.0. That's six years ago already. It worked fine before that but that's the moment they started shipping lots of out of the box Kotlin support. Frankly, if you are using Spring and not using Kotlin, you're missing out big time. Lots of companies of course insist on doing things the verbose and hard way with Java.

kridsdale3 2y ago

Google does.