10 ms·

IMHO Apple fanboyism is not a problem in the hacker community. It's a well-built solid metal portable development workstation. With BSD UNIX. And a pretty laye

IMHO Apple fanboyism is not a problem in the hacker community. It's a well-built solid metal portable development workstation. With BSD UNIX. And a pretty layer on top. Among programmers, I never need to explain why we would buy these things. It's outside the programming groups that the conversation gets hostile. I find most programmers avoid this completely, knowing that they're simply using the best tool available for the job, and ignoring the hype, criticism, and fanboyism. Props, hackers, keep it up.

jurre 14y ago
I study computer science and the amount of banter I get from fellow students for using a macbook air is unbelievable. Other people usually seem quite ok with it, although self proclaimed power users usually seem to have an opinion about it.
- drivebyacct2 14y ago
  This is just rich to me. Yes, enjoy your Visual Studio and broken command line, I'll be using lightweight tools and an actual POSIX command line. *edit: Wow, -10? Sorry, I was just sharing my experience of being mocked by people who proudly brag about their Windows 7 machine and are barely proficient at .NET programming who give me a hard time because "Macs are lame and Windows is for geeks". Didn't know there were so many fucking yuppie Windows people to be so defensive. Jesus. Literally, 10 people downvoted this. Stay classy. (And the GP backed up what I said anyway, jerks)
  - pook1e 14y ago
    Just because they don't use OS X doesn't mean they use Windows. As a Computer Science student I'm willing to bet that most of those that "banter" on the parent use Linux.
    - jurre 14y ago
      No, they actually all use windows!
      - rbanffy 14y ago
        Microsoft has a very strong technology evangelizing program targeted at upper education. They almost pay colleges to offer Windows-centric courses and Windows-only labs. <tongue-in-cheek> The Linux users generally consider OSX a nice Linux-like OS that lacks a decent package manager ;-) Much like Microsoft, the hardware is great. </tongue-in-cheek> Disclaimer: I am mostly a Linux user who also uses Macs for certain tasks.
        jurre 14y ago
        Hey we have homebrew nowadays :P And microsoft is actually really generous towards students, I can get basically any software except for office for free.
        rbanffy 14y ago
        > Hey we have homebrew nowadays :P When I'm on a Mac, I'm a ports guy. MacPorts is probably the first thing I install on every Mac I lay my hands upon. That, iTerm2 and Cathode (who can resist that?) > And microsoft is actually really generous towards students, I can get basically any software except for office for free. The first one is always free. They will only bill you when you actually need what they offer. Chances are, when you do, you won't be able to easily move away.
        X-Istence 14y ago
        I actually argued against the Windowsification of all of the classes in my college and pushed back at every opportunity. I don't think it makes sense for a college that is teaching computer science to dedicate all of their resources and tools on Windows only software. C++ is used outside of Microsoft Visual Studio, and the code that works in VS will most likely not even compile due to not being standards compliant (Although VS2010 has gotten MUCH better at it than older versions). Many of my teachers eventually would relent and realise that yes I was right. TCP/IP is one of the classes I took in which Windows was required. TCP/IP is a network protocol, it is available in all major OS's. I turned in entire assignments with a simple note "Windows required, don't have Windows." Luckily I didn't end up getting docked points because they realised I already knew all of the information in the course. One thing that was really nice, and I am surprised none of the teachers used it against me was the fact that with MSDNAA I as a student had access to thousands of dollars worth of Microsoft software. You name it I could download a free legal copy of it for use during my tenure at college as a student. Microsoft seems to have that on lock. What better way to get students to play with your platform than to have them use all your tools and software free of charge. Windows 7, Visual Studio, SQL, SharePoint, Exchange and others.
    - drivebyacct2 14y ago
      I was talking about specific cases that happened to me, in support of precisely what the GP was describing. I use all major OSes and spend most of my day in Windows. I don't know why or how my comment was perceived the way it was. Clearly I'm wasting my time trying to explain myself.
  - manfrommars 14y ago
    Powershell is hardly broken.
    - drivebyacct2 14y ago
      Right, and it's still PowerShell.
      - JonoW 14y ago
        What does that even mean?
  - jsprinkles 14y ago
    Remember how you were surprised I was accusing you of being a troll a while back? And you were adamant that you aren't, and that I had you all wrong? (Amusing, given your bio.) Now step back and read this comment, as well as your PowerShell response below, then rethink why I'd say that.
    - drivebyacct2 14y ago
      Don't you have anything better to do? Did the votes last time not teach you anything? I was offering an anecdote, I'm in a Windows environment more hours a day than OS X or Linux combined. You're like a badly broken record no matter what it is you're spouting. Seriously where do you get off following me around talking about the same things over and over just to be an obnoxious ass? Just leave me alone, you're creepy and obviously have some misplaced superiority complex, well maybe inferiority given how much you seem to stalk and put me down.
  - robomartin 14y ago
    I don't believe in down-voting without an explanation. Here's mine: These Mac vx. PC arguments now beyond ridiculous. To those of us for whom computers are tools and not just a way to get on Facebook the metric should not be emotion or fan-boy-ism but rather applicability, efficiency, utility, cost and other factors. I have a roughly equal number of PC's and Macs. I use both. I enjoy both. I get angry at both. There are good things with both OS's and there are thorn-in-my-ass problems with both. Welcome to having choices. As tools they are both fantastic. I love having unix behind the scenes with MacOS. Brilliant decision on their part. On the PC side, I have come to appreciate the non-nonsense cost-effectiveness of the platform. I have very powerful workstations setup for FEA fluid and heat simulation that cost a fraction of what our nicely-equipped Mac Pro's cost. And they rock. I could say more but have to get back to work. There you go, a downvote with an explanation.
    - drivebyacct2 14y ago
      I use Windows on a very, very, very regular basis. My comment has been taken completely out of context. Were we not talking about people who had Macs being mocked for not being geeky enough? I merely offered an anecdote about my peers that ironically tout that line because it's funny. Ironic that I'm now at -15 for pointing out that in my situation, the opposite was true. Seriously, which part of my comment has every Windows fan out there thinking I hate Windows? I don't know how that was the takeaway when I was merely remarking on the times where I, like the grandparent, was trolled by Windows users.
      - nkohari 14y ago
        It wasn't the content of your comment, it was the tone. If you sound like a prick, people will downvote you regardless of whether you have a clear point. (Which, incidentally, you didn't.)
- rdl 14y ago
  If you look at Silicon Valley startups, it's basically almost all Macs, with the possible exception of Windows + Excel for CFOs at the larger companies, and Windows + CAD for people doing hardware design at a serious level. i.e. conference tables have MagSafe power adapters zip tied to them semi-permanently, since that's what almost everyone uses.
  - dvdhsu 14y ago
    > i.e. conference tables have MagSafe power adapters zip tied to them semi-permanently, since that's what almost everyone uses. It's too bad that Apple is moving to MagSafe II with the new retina MacBook Pro. I guess we'll all have to carry around adapters now: http://store.apple.com/us/product/MD504 http://store.apple.com/us/product/MD504
    - rdl 14y ago
      Dear god why? I am actually quite unimpressed by the entire WWDC lineup, but they made so many stupid mistakes like this. There is almost no advantage to using a slightly slimmer MagSafe, and moderate cost; there would be greater advantage to a smaller iPod Dock connector, but much higher cost, so I guess they'll do that too.
      - jonknee 14y ago
        "Almost no advantage" = thinner laptops. Apple will go for thinner every time (see ethernet for an example).
        rdl 14y ago
        It's not thinner than the MBA 2011. The MBA 2011 has regular MagSafe. Maybe they needed to go thinner for engineering reasons to put other stuff inside, but that seems lame.
        bzbarsky 14y ago
        With the MBA 2011 the connector sits very low such that simply putting the laptop down on a couch will disconnect the connector in my experience. It's the #1 issue I've had while trying to use an MBA. If using a thinner connector let Apple fix that problem, that would be quite nice. Of course it's possible that it didn't. I haven't had a chance to try the new thing.
- mattgreenrocks 14y ago
  "Power users" are probably the single worst demographic of all of them. Overly demanding, opinionated, and sometimes ill-informed.
  - jarek 14y ago
    And their early adopter mindset! Ugh, I don't see why anyone would want to target them at all.
    - mattgreenrocks 14y ago
      Well, I did overlook that. I suppose I've read one too many "why does my computer use all its RAM?!?!" threads...
- chipsy 14y ago
  CS students are among some of the most hostile, sophomoric people you will ever encounter in software development. They all have something to prove, even though they've barely started themselves, so putdowns are common. Grain of salt. Experiment. Do what works.
neutronicus 14y ago
I wish people would refrain from using the word "fanboy" on HN.
- calinet6 14y ago
  I wish people would refrain from using the word "rockstar" too, but whatdyagonnado?
- larrys 14y ago
  "refrain from using the word "fanboy" on HN" It's a jealousy tick. I remember the same behavior in high school (which was a long time ago). People would make fun of you for anything you were really obsessive over.
SiVal 14y ago
If things keep going the way they're going, Apple fanboyism will become less and less of a problem among hackers. Apple appears to be in a gradual transition process from MacOS computers to iOS "Don't worry, just watch the pretty pictures, and we'll tell you which PAY button to press" devices. Windows, not wanting to be left behind selling computers instead of devices (Yuck! Computers! That's SO 20th century), is making the same transition to Metro. It appears that both of the major computer platform makers have come to the same conclusion: they don't want to make computers that their customers can program for their own purposes; they want to make ever-more-tightly-sealed point-of-sale devices for buying digital products and services from the device maker and its partners. In other words, if you think the sealed iPhone, tethered to giant companies with strict rules about what you may and may not do with it or put on it and its design esthetic of "enjoy the beauty, stop resisting, do exactly as we say, and why not buy something with it, you'll feel better" is your idea of a great "pocket computer" for hackers, then you should be happy about where our computers are going. Otherwise.... I think we hackers are going to be driven to Linux on the desktop over time, which I would have no objection to if only there were an "Apple for Linux" company making the hardware and matching drivers of Apple-level quality. I can live without MacOS, but the hardware is a big deal.
- tehayj 14y ago
  very well put.
- tomkarlo 14y ago
  From the sales charts, it seems this is what the customers want, too. For some reason folks like to believe that Apple is somehow "fooling" customers into buying that experience. What if it's simply what non-developers want? Isn't that a simpler explanation?
  - jerf 14y ago
    The objection is that this isn't mutually exclusive. You can provide all the niceties, and make it so that there are still ways in to the simplified UI so that a nine-year-old can set out on their own and learn things about how the machine works. The companies are using this paradigm shift as an excuse to lock us in a box, they are not locking us in a box because the tech or the experience is only available if they do so. They're eating the seed corn, but they don't really care since they won't feel the effect for 15 years or more. I personally don't care much either, unless they manage to fully legislate their locked boxes as the only option... which they are trying to do whenever we aren't looking, by the way, the most recent being with Microsoft locking out other OSes on their ARM boxes.
charlieok 14y ago
Also, programmers get annoyed at their machines, even nice well-made ones, for all kinds of specific reasons that most computer users won't. Sure, I like getting a new shiny thing just like anybody else. But it does seem a little less shiny once I've tried to put my employer's dev environment on it and found that Apple's customized version of a common C library broke the build. Or an Oracle dependency we (very unfortunately) have hasn't been upgraded by Oracle in a couple years and crashes on the new OS. The lot of the programmer seems to be that you never get to have your tools "just work".

jurre 14y ago

I study computer science and the amount of banter I get from fellow students for using a macbook air is unbelievable. Other people usually seem quite ok with it, although self proclaimed power users usually seem to have an opinion about it.

drivebyacct2 14y ago
This is just rich to me. Yes, enjoy your Visual Studio and broken command line, I'll be using lightweight tools and an actual POSIX command line. *edit: Wow, -10? Sorry, I was just sharing my experience of being mocked by people who proudly brag about their Windows 7 machine and are barely proficient at .NET programming who give me a hard time because "Macs are lame and Windows is for geeks". Didn't know there were so many fucking yuppie Windows people to be so defensive. Jesus. Literally, 10 people downvoted this. Stay classy. (And the GP backed up what I said anyway, jerks)
- pook1e 14y ago
  Just because they don't use OS X doesn't mean they use Windows. As a Computer Science student I'm willing to bet that most of those that "banter" on the parent use Linux.
  - jurre 14y ago
    No, they actually all use windows!
    - rbanffy 14y ago
      Microsoft has a very strong technology evangelizing program targeted at upper education. They almost pay colleges to offer Windows-centric courses and Windows-only labs. <tongue-in-cheek> The Linux users generally consider OSX a nice Linux-like OS that lacks a decent package manager ;-) Much like Microsoft, the hardware is great. </tongue-in-cheek> Disclaimer: I am mostly a Linux user who also uses Macs for certain tasks.
      - jurre 14y ago
        Hey we have homebrew nowadays :P And microsoft is actually really generous towards students, I can get basically any software except for office for free.
        rbanffy 14y ago
        > Hey we have homebrew nowadays :P When I'm on a Mac, I'm a ports guy. MacPorts is probably the first thing I install on every Mac I lay my hands upon. That, iTerm2 and Cathode (who can resist that?) > And microsoft is actually really generous towards students, I can get basically any software except for office for free. The first one is always free. They will only bill you when you actually need what they offer. Chances are, when you do, you won't be able to easily move away.
      - X-Istence 14y ago
        I actually argued against the Windowsification of all of the classes in my college and pushed back at every opportunity. I don't think it makes sense for a college that is teaching computer science to dedicate all of their resources and tools on Windows only software. C++ is used outside of Microsoft Visual Studio, and the code that works in VS will most likely not even compile due to not being standards compliant (Although VS2010 has gotten MUCH better at it than older versions). Many of my teachers eventually would relent and realise that yes I was right. TCP/IP is one of the classes I took in which Windows was required. TCP/IP is a network protocol, it is available in all major OS's. I turned in entire assignments with a simple note "Windows required, don't have Windows." Luckily I didn't end up getting docked points because they realised I already knew all of the information in the course. One thing that was really nice, and I am surprised none of the teachers used it against me was the fact that with MSDNAA I as a student had access to thousands of dollars worth of Microsoft software. You name it I could download a free legal copy of it for use during my tenure at college as a student. Microsoft seems to have that on lock. What better way to get students to play with your platform than to have them use all your tools and software free of charge. Windows 7, Visual Studio, SQL, SharePoint, Exchange and others.
  - drivebyacct2 14y ago
    I was talking about specific cases that happened to me, in support of precisely what the GP was describing. I use all major OSes and spend most of my day in Windows. I don't know why or how my comment was perceived the way it was. Clearly I'm wasting my time trying to explain myself.
- manfrommars 14y ago
  Powershell is hardly broken.
  - drivebyacct2 14y ago
    Right, and it's still PowerShell.
    - JonoW 14y ago
      What does that even mean?
- jsprinkles 14y ago
  Remember how you were surprised I was accusing you of being a troll a while back? And you were adamant that you aren't, and that I had you all wrong? (Amusing, given your bio.) Now step back and read this comment, as well as your PowerShell response below, then rethink why I'd say that.
  - drivebyacct2 14y ago
    Don't you have anything better to do? Did the votes last time not teach you anything? I was offering an anecdote, I'm in a Windows environment more hours a day than OS X or Linux combined. You're like a badly broken record no matter what it is you're spouting. Seriously where do you get off following me around talking about the same things over and over just to be an obnoxious ass? Just leave me alone, you're creepy and obviously have some misplaced superiority complex, well maybe inferiority given how much you seem to stalk and put me down.
- robomartin 14y ago
  I don't believe in down-voting without an explanation. Here's mine: These Mac vx. PC arguments now beyond ridiculous. To those of us for whom computers are tools and not just a way to get on Facebook the metric should not be emotion or fan-boy-ism but rather applicability, efficiency, utility, cost and other factors. I have a roughly equal number of PC's and Macs. I use both. I enjoy both. I get angry at both. There are good things with both OS's and there are thorn-in-my-ass problems with both. Welcome to having choices. As tools they are both fantastic. I love having unix behind the scenes with MacOS. Brilliant decision on their part. On the PC side, I have come to appreciate the non-nonsense cost-effectiveness of the platform. I have very powerful workstations setup for FEA fluid and heat simulation that cost a fraction of what our nicely-equipped Mac Pro's cost. And they rock. I could say more but have to get back to work. There you go, a downvote with an explanation.
  - drivebyacct2 14y ago
    I use Windows on a very, very, very regular basis. My comment has been taken completely out of context. Were we not talking about people who had Macs being mocked for not being geeky enough? I merely offered an anecdote about my peers that ironically tout that line because it's funny. Ironic that I'm now at -15 for pointing out that in my situation, the opposite was true. Seriously, which part of my comment has every Windows fan out there thinking I hate Windows? I don't know how that was the takeaway when I was merely remarking on the times where I, like the grandparent, was trolled by Windows users.
    - nkohari 14y ago
      It wasn't the content of your comment, it was the tone. If you sound like a prick, people will downvote you regardless of whether you have a clear point. (Which, incidentally, you didn't.)
rdl 14y ago
If you look at Silicon Valley startups, it's basically almost all Macs, with the possible exception of Windows + Excel for CFOs at the larger companies, and Windows + CAD for people doing hardware design at a serious level. i.e. conference tables have MagSafe power adapters zip tied to them semi-permanently, since that's what almost everyone uses.
- dvdhsu 14y ago
  > i.e. conference tables have MagSafe power adapters zip tied to them semi-permanently, since that's what almost everyone uses. It's too bad that Apple is moving to MagSafe II with the new retina MacBook Pro. I guess we'll all have to carry around adapters now: http://store.apple.com/us/product/MD504 http://store.apple.com/us/product/MD504
  - rdl 14y ago
    Dear god why? I am actually quite unimpressed by the entire WWDC lineup, but they made so many stupid mistakes like this. There is almost no advantage to using a slightly slimmer MagSafe, and moderate cost; there would be greater advantage to a smaller iPod Dock connector, but much higher cost, so I guess they'll do that too.
    - jonknee 14y ago
      "Almost no advantage" = thinner laptops. Apple will go for thinner every time (see ethernet for an example).
      - rdl 14y ago
        It's not thinner than the MBA 2011. The MBA 2011 has regular MagSafe. Maybe they needed to go thinner for engineering reasons to put other stuff inside, but that seems lame.
        bzbarsky 14y ago
        With the MBA 2011 the connector sits very low such that simply putting the laptop down on a couch will disconnect the connector in my experience. It's the #1 issue I've had while trying to use an MBA. If using a thinner connector let Apple fix that problem, that would be quite nice. Of course it's possible that it didn't. I haven't had a chance to try the new thing.
mattgreenrocks 14y ago
"Power users" are probably the single worst demographic of all of them. Overly demanding, opinionated, and sometimes ill-informed.
- jarek 14y ago
  And their early adopter mindset! Ugh, I don't see why anyone would want to target them at all.
  - mattgreenrocks 14y ago
    Well, I did overlook that. I suppose I've read one too many "why does my computer use all its RAM?!?!" threads...
chipsy 14y ago
CS students are among some of the most hostile, sophomoric people you will ever encounter in software development. They all have something to prove, even though they've barely started themselves, so putdowns are common. Grain of salt. Experiment. Do what works.

neutronicus 14y ago

I wish people would refrain from using the word "fanboy" on HN.

calinet6 14y ago
I wish people would refrain from using the word "rockstar" too, but whatdyagonnado?
larrys 14y ago
"refrain from using the word "fanboy" on HN" It's a jealousy tick. I remember the same behavior in high school (which was a long time ago). People would make fun of you for anything you were really obsessive over.

SiVal 14y ago

If things keep going the way they're going, Apple fanboyism will become less and less of a problem among hackers. Apple appears to be in a gradual transition process from MacOS computers to iOS "Don't worry, just watch the pretty pictures, and we'll tell you which PAY button to press" devices. Windows, not wanting to be left behind selling computers instead of devices (Yuck! Computers! That's SO 20th century), is making the same transition to Metro. It appears that both of the major computer platform makers have come to the same conclusion: they don't want to make computers that their customers can program for their own purposes; they want to make ever-more-tightly-sealed point-of-sale devices for buying digital products and services from the device maker and its partners. In other words, if you think the sealed iPhone, tethered to giant companies with strict rules about what you may and may not do with it or put on it and its design esthetic of "enjoy the beauty, stop resisting, do exactly as we say, and why not buy something with it, you'll feel better" is your idea of a great "pocket computer" for hackers, then you should be happy about where our computers are going. Otherwise.... I think we hackers are going to be driven to Linux on the desktop over time, which I would have no objection to if only there were an "Apple for Linux" company making the hardware and matching drivers of Apple-level quality. I can live without MacOS, but the hardware is a big deal.

tehayj 14y ago
very well put.
tomkarlo 14y ago
From the sales charts, it seems this is what the customers want, too. For some reason folks like to believe that Apple is somehow "fooling" customers into buying that experience. What if it's simply what non-developers want? Isn't that a simpler explanation?
- jerf 14y ago
  The objection is that this isn't mutually exclusive. You can provide all the niceties, and make it so that there are still ways in to the simplified UI so that a nine-year-old can set out on their own and learn things about how the machine works. The companies are using this paradigm shift as an excuse to lock us in a box, they are not locking us in a box because the tech or the experience is only available if they do so. They're eating the seed corn, but they don't really care since they won't feel the effect for 15 years or more. I personally don't care much either, unless they manage to fully legislate their locked boxes as the only option... which they are trying to do whenever we aren't looking, by the way, the most recent being with Microsoft locking out other OSes on their ARM boxes.

charlieok 14y ago

Also, programmers get annoyed at their machines, even nice well-made ones, for all kinds of specific reasons that most computer users won't. Sure, I like getting a new shiny thing just like anybody else. But it does seem a little less shiny once I've tried to put my employer's dev environment on it and found that Apple's customized version of a common C library broke the build. Or an Oracle dependency we (very unfortunately) have hasn't been upgraded by Oracle in a couple years and crashes on the new OS. The lot of the programmer seems to be that you never get to have your tools "just work".