3 ms·

This part I don’t get. How do you construct pressuring the VP to make a procedural step that it is within his discretion to make as an attempted coup?

Timon3 2y ago
How is overturning an election not an attempted coup, especially when it's based on a fringe reading of the legal documents specifying these procedures? It's absolutely not a given that Pence had the power to do anything - but that's why Republicans have been stacking the courts, so they suddenly can interpret laws in ways that overturn the will of the people. And honestly, what kind of defense is that? "Yeah, the sitting president attempted to overturn the election and stay in power, but theoretically this never-before used procedural loophole could give his VP the right to ignore the election results due to the terrorist attack committed by the presidents followers" - you can't seriously think this is acceptable behavior for your leaders, right? No matter how you put it: Trump attempted to stay in power after he lost the election. There is no world in which this isn't an attempted coup.
- skissane 2y ago
  Doesn't this logic also lead to the conclusion that Bush mounted a successful coup in 2000? Democratically speaking, Al Gore had won the popular vote. And he might have won the electoral college vote too, if SCOTUS hadn't shut his push for a recount down in a partisan 5-4 decision. In fact, there are still voices on the left who call the 2000 election a "judicial coup d'état". If American democracy survived one coup, why couldn't it survive another? Of course, you can argue that the popular vote isn't what really counts, it is the electoral college vote. However, if you are going to put process ahead of the people's will in that way – isn't the various attempts to manipulate the electoral college counting which arguably occurred in 2020 and 2000 (and even happened or almost happened in 1960–what if Nixon had been in a less generous mood?) just taking the same "process over popular will" a step further? If the electoral college isn't in itself a coup, what makes pushing its technicalities a coup? I'm not saying that what either Bush or Gore in 2000 did is exactly the same as what Trump did in 2020. But it certainly seems like 2000 – at least to some degree – created a precedent for what happened 20 years later, and also for many of the narratives (on one side or the other) that would be invoked 20 years later
  - admissionsguy 2y ago
    The grievance regarding 2020 election starts and ends with Democrat-favouring changes to indirect voting that were allowed due to the covid panic and arguably moved the needle enough to let Biden win. That’s what stealing the election refers to. It was not fair to Trump and him challenging the result is justified.
    - Timon3 2y ago
      While I disagree with your portrayal of the election changes, you are right that Trump challenging the result was justified. But when his challenges failed and it was clear that Biden won fair and square, there was no justification for attempting to stay in power and ending democracy.
      - admissionsguy 2y ago
        I suspect it would have been beneficial for Trump for back off earlier. However, I just cannot see asking Pence to delay certification as trying to end democracy, same as I cannot see the Jan 6th protests as an attempt to overturn the election by force.
        Timon3 2y ago
        > However, I just cannot see asking Pence to delay certification as trying to end democracy Trump didn't ask Pence to delay certification, he asked him to count the fake electors prepared by Republicans instead. What is the end of democracy, if not the loser of an election staying in power by abusing loopholes? Had Trump stayed in power, democracy would have ended. Trump and the Republicans attempted many avenues to keep him in power.
        deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
      - mrguyorama 2y ago
        His challenges were absolutely NOT justified, which is why they got thrown out of nearly every single court he entered them in to.
klyrs 2y ago
> How do you construct pressuring the VP to make a procedural step that it is within his discretion to make as an attempted coup? Questions like this are the rational basis for Democrats to claim that Trump, and more broadly, Republicans, represent an existential threat to democracy.

Timon3 2y ago

How is overturning an election not an attempted coup, especially when it's based on a fringe reading of the legal documents specifying these procedures? It's absolutely not a given that Pence had the power to do anything - but that's why Republicans have been stacking the courts, so they suddenly can interpret laws in ways that overturn the will of the people. And honestly, what kind of defense is that? "Yeah, the sitting president attempted to overturn the election and stay in power, but theoretically this never-before used procedural loophole could give his VP the right to ignore the election results due to the terrorist attack committed by the presidents followers" - you can't seriously think this is acceptable behavior for your leaders, right? No matter how you put it: Trump attempted to stay in power after he lost the election. There is no world in which this isn't an attempted coup.

skissane 2y ago
Doesn't this logic also lead to the conclusion that Bush mounted a successful coup in 2000? Democratically speaking, Al Gore had won the popular vote. And he might have won the electoral college vote too, if SCOTUS hadn't shut his push for a recount down in a partisan 5-4 decision. In fact, there are still voices on the left who call the 2000 election a "judicial coup d'état". If American democracy survived one coup, why couldn't it survive another? Of course, you can argue that the popular vote isn't what really counts, it is the electoral college vote. However, if you are going to put process ahead of the people's will in that way – isn't the various attempts to manipulate the electoral college counting which arguably occurred in 2020 and 2000 (and even happened or almost happened in 1960–what if Nixon had been in a less generous mood?) just taking the same "process over popular will" a step further? If the electoral college isn't in itself a coup, what makes pushing its technicalities a coup? I'm not saying that what either Bush or Gore in 2000 did is exactly the same as what Trump did in 2020. But it certainly seems like 2000 – at least to some degree – created a precedent for what happened 20 years later, and also for many of the narratives (on one side or the other) that would be invoked 20 years later
- admissionsguy 2y ago
  The grievance regarding 2020 election starts and ends with Democrat-favouring changes to indirect voting that were allowed due to the covid panic and arguably moved the needle enough to let Biden win. That’s what stealing the election refers to. It was not fair to Trump and him challenging the result is justified.
  - Timon3 2y ago
    While I disagree with your portrayal of the election changes, you are right that Trump challenging the result was justified. But when his challenges failed and it was clear that Biden won fair and square, there was no justification for attempting to stay in power and ending democracy.
    - admissionsguy 2y ago
      I suspect it would have been beneficial for Trump for back off earlier. However, I just cannot see asking Pence to delay certification as trying to end democracy, same as I cannot see the Jan 6th protests as an attempt to overturn the election by force.
      - Timon3 2y ago
        > However, I just cannot see asking Pence to delay certification as trying to end democracy Trump didn't ask Pence to delay certification, he asked him to count the fake electors prepared by Republicans instead. What is the end of democracy, if not the loser of an election staying in power by abusing loopholes? Had Trump stayed in power, democracy would have ended. Trump and the Republicans attempted many avenues to keep him in power.
        deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
    - mrguyorama 2y ago
      His challenges were absolutely NOT justified, which is why they got thrown out of nearly every single court he entered them in to.

klyrs 2y ago

> How do you construct pressuring the VP to make a procedural step that it is within his discretion to make as an attempted coup? Questions like this are the rational basis for Democrats to claim that Trump, and more broadly, Republicans, represent an existential threat to democracy.