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> they wanted the election process to be interrupted, which would (according to their reading) have allowed Pence to count the fake electors they provided. That

by proc0 2y ago

> they wanted the election process to be interrupted, which would (according to their reading) have allowed Pence to count the fake electors they provided. That's the insurrection. I'm trying to understand, you are saying that the military would have showed up and forced Pence to overturn the election? Or what did I miss? I'm saying even if the protesters would have taken the building, the national guard takes it back immediately, and the electors get certified the next day in another building. In this scenario the national guard is not joining in on the effort in any way. It would just delay it. I could see how it could be a real threat to the election if there was proof of a large coordinated effort with firearms, by which I mean people conspired to actually takeover the building and launched a plan to do it, as oppose to a large mob with bad actors.

Timon3 2y ago
> I'm trying to understand, you are saying that the military would have showed up and forced Pence to overturn the election? Or what did I miss? No, where did you come up with the military? Trump wanted to force Pence to overturn the election. He manufactured a scenario in which their reading of the constitution would allow Pence to choose which electors to count. Where does the military come into play? > I'm saying even if the protesters would have taken the building, the national guard takes it back immediately, and the electors get certified the next day in another building. In this scenario the national guard is not joining in on the effort in any way. It would just delay it. And the republicans specifically counted on this happening, as it would give Pence plausible cause to count fake electors. The delay is an essential part of the insurrection. The terrorists storming the Capitol did their job. They only had to delay the counting. The rest of the attempted insurrection was done by the sitting president and their party. I don't know how to be more clear than this. If you only look at the actions of the terrorists, and ignore the actions of the politicians, of course the whole thing looks like a hap-hazard attempt at taking over power - you're literally ignoring the most important parts! > I could see how it could be a real threat to the election if there was proof of a large coordinated effort with firearms, by which I mean people conspired to actually takeover the building and launched a plan to do it, as oppose to a large mob with bad actors. How is that a real threat to the election, while the sitting president attempting to force their vice president to count fake electors is not?
- proc0 2y ago
  > And the republicans specifically counted on this happening, as it would give Pence plausible cause to count fake electors. The delay is an essential part of the insurrection. I don't think that would have changed Pence's mind, I think that's where I disagree then. Pence was going to do what he was going to do regardless. A delay wasn't going to make people change their minds. It seems more plausible to me that Trump actually thought (and still thinks) it was rigged and was supporting a protest just like any other and then things got out of control. He was a bad president in that moment, which would have affected him negatively if it was just left alone.
  - Timon3 2y ago
    > I don't think that would have changed Pence's mind, I think that's where I disagree then. Pence was going to do what he was going to do regardless. A delay wasn't going to make people change their minds. Trump attempted to change Pences mind multiple times, including tweets painting a target on his back while the terrorist attack was underway. Trump was aware of the attack going on, and instead of making statements to discourage violence, he directed the terrorists at Pence while he still perceived a chance for things to go his way. A delay wasn't going to make people change their minds, but direct threats of violence (remember the chants and the gallows?) stoked by the sitting president sure could have. > It seems more plausible to me that Trump actually thought (and still thinks) it was rigged and was supporting a protest just like any other and then things got out of control. He was a bad president in that moment, which would have affected him negatively if it was just left alone. This is what I can't understand - the sitting president and their party put the country in a position where, if one person had bowed to their pressure, the election would have been overturned. Many of these people specifically worked towards this goal, sending fake electors - and the president explicitely supported this whole scheme, while everyone was telling him that there was no evidence for the election being rigged. How are any citizens supposed to be okay with this? Even if Trump fully believed his own lies, it doesn't make this one bit better. The government was almost overthrown by the sitting president, and he's just going to run again, only this time his stacked courts have given him far wider-reaching powers and have removed ways to hold them accountable. How are you not all extremely scared of the consequences for your country? Just for the record, here are some tweets (all before any public statement discouraging the attack): January 6, 2021 06:00:50 > If Vice President @Mike_Pence comes through for us, we will win the Presidency. Many States want to decertify the mistake they made in certifying incorrect & even fraudulent numbers in a process NOT approved by their State Legislatures (which it must be). Mike can send it back! January 6, 2021 13:17:22 > States want to correct their votes, which they now know were based on irregularities and fraud, plus corrupt process never received legislative approval. All Mike Pence has to do is send them back to the States, AND WE WIN. Do it Mike, this is a time for extreme courage! January 6, 2021 19:24:22 > Mike Pence didn't have the courage to do what should have been done to protect our Country and our Constitution, giving States a chance to certify a corrected set of facts, not the fraudulent or inaccurate ones which they were asked to previously certify. USA demands the truth!

by proc0 2y ago

Timon3 2y ago

> I'm trying to understand, you are saying that the military would have showed up and forced Pence to overturn the election? Or what did I miss? No, where did you come up with the military? Trump wanted to force Pence to overturn the election. He manufactured a scenario in which their reading of the constitution would allow Pence to choose which electors to count. Where does the military come into play? > I'm saying even if the protesters would have taken the building, the national guard takes it back immediately, and the electors get certified the next day in another building. In this scenario the national guard is not joining in on the effort in any way. It would just delay it. And the republicans specifically counted on this happening, as it would give Pence plausible cause to count fake electors. The delay is an essential part of the insurrection. The terrorists storming the Capitol did their job. They only had to delay the counting. The rest of the attempted insurrection was done by the sitting president and their party. I don't know how to be more clear than this. If you only look at the actions of the terrorists, and ignore the actions of the politicians, of course the whole thing looks like a hap-hazard attempt at taking over power - you're literally ignoring the most important parts! > I could see how it could be a real threat to the election if there was proof of a large coordinated effort with firearms, by which I mean people conspired to actually takeover the building and launched a plan to do it, as oppose to a large mob with bad actors. How is that a real threat to the election, while the sitting president attempting to force their vice president to count fake electors is not?

proc0 2y ago
> And the republicans specifically counted on this happening, as it would give Pence plausible cause to count fake electors. The delay is an essential part of the insurrection. I don't think that would have changed Pence's mind, I think that's where I disagree then. Pence was going to do what he was going to do regardless. A delay wasn't going to make people change their minds. It seems more plausible to me that Trump actually thought (and still thinks) it was rigged and was supporting a protest just like any other and then things got out of control. He was a bad president in that moment, which would have affected him negatively if it was just left alone.
- Timon3 2y ago
  > I don't think that would have changed Pence's mind, I think that's where I disagree then. Pence was going to do what he was going to do regardless. A delay wasn't going to make people change their minds. Trump attempted to change Pences mind multiple times, including tweets painting a target on his back while the terrorist attack was underway. Trump was aware of the attack going on, and instead of making statements to discourage violence, he directed the terrorists at Pence while he still perceived a chance for things to go his way. A delay wasn't going to make people change their minds, but direct threats of violence (remember the chants and the gallows?) stoked by the sitting president sure could have. > It seems more plausible to me that Trump actually thought (and still thinks) it was rigged and was supporting a protest just like any other and then things got out of control. He was a bad president in that moment, which would have affected him negatively if it was just left alone. This is what I can't understand - the sitting president and their party put the country in a position where, if one person had bowed to their pressure, the election would have been overturned. Many of these people specifically worked towards this goal, sending fake electors - and the president explicitely supported this whole scheme, while everyone was telling him that there was no evidence for the election being rigged. How are any citizens supposed to be okay with this? Even if Trump fully believed his own lies, it doesn't make this one bit better. The government was almost overthrown by the sitting president, and he's just going to run again, only this time his stacked courts have given him far wider-reaching powers and have removed ways to hold them accountable. How are you not all extremely scared of the consequences for your country? Just for the record, here are some tweets (all before any public statement discouraging the attack): January 6, 2021 06:00:50 > If Vice President @Mike_Pence comes through for us, we will win the Presidency. Many States want to decertify the mistake they made in certifying incorrect & even fraudulent numbers in a process NOT approved by their State Legislatures (which it must be). Mike can send it back! January 6, 2021 13:17:22 > States want to correct their votes, which they now know were based on irregularities and fraud, plus corrupt process never received legislative approval. All Mike Pence has to do is send them back to the States, AND WE WIN. Do it Mike, this is a time for extreme courage! January 6, 2021 19:24:22 > Mike Pence didn't have the courage to do what should have been done to protect our Country and our Constitution, giving States a chance to certify a corrected set of facts, not the fraudulent or inaccurate ones which they were asked to previously certify. USA demands the truth!