6 ms·

Australia is an aberration (I can go into it in more detail if you'd like), but for the most part, the reason the US is (substantially) economically better off

by wyager 2y ago

Australia is an aberration (I can go into it in more detail if you'd like), but for the most part, the reason the US is (substantially) economically better off than most European countries (like the UK, where the GGP is from) is inextricably tied to the unique ethno-cultural characteristics (descended from a weird mish-mash of quakerism, scots-irish borderer culture, etc.) of the USA. Major relevant factors include a high degree of individualism, relatively high risk tolerance, relatively strong belief in property rights, etc. - all of which are coincident with a belief in and desire for public gun ownership. I look at the US and I see one of the richest, most successful, and most impactful countries in the world (and not through any sort of low-liquidity arbitrage like being a tax haven). Our crime rates are moderately higher than countries in similar wealth brackets, but this is entirely (and I mean, non-hyperbolically, entirely) attributable to factors besides our relatively high gun ownership rates.

sanswork 2y ago
The whole country is in a constant state of fear because of guns. Almost every justification I've seen is about a right to protect yourselves from others with guns but you can't seem to understand that most people in western countries never have to worry about this. I don't ever leave my house worried about being shot or being in a position where a gun would help. You keep adding more guns talking about how you need them to protect yourselves from the other guns and things just keep getting worse and worse. You're on a downward spiral of gun violence and fear. You talk about wealth but it's not evenly distributed at all and there is a reason your richest live in walled off communities and your poorest die early due to lack of access to preventative medicine and quality nutrition. Wealth means little when you live with a constant threat of violence, it's like being a billionaire in China or Russia.
- tekknik 2y ago
  > The whole country is in a constant state of fear because of guns. Most of us are not living in fear. If you say you rarely have to protect yourself then you’re defeating your own argument. the problem is the rhetoric from left media. they need to calm down and quit driving deranged people to action.
  - sanswork 2y ago
    >or, and more than likely, people want guns to ensure they’re not the victim, given police only respond to crimes that have already happened and rarely prevent crimes. That is you in another comment in this post. You are literally describing living in fear. For most people in the west the worry about needing to protect themselves never factors into their life it just isn't something we need to worry about, this constant fear is a distinctly American issue.
    - lobocinza 2y ago
      If you consider South America to be America, I can say that Brazilians constantly live in fear despite strict gun control laws and criminals have no trouble obtaining whatever they want.
      - sanswork 2y ago
        I'm referring to western countries above.
        lobocinza 2y ago
        You are cherry-picking data.
        sanswork 2y ago
        Yes, otherwise I wouldn't have specified western countries. I'm comparing like for like.
    - tekknik 2y ago
      What did I say about fear? Did you confuse posters?
      - sanswork 2y ago
        >people want guns to ensure they’re not the victim
- sbuttgereit 2y ago
  > The whole country is in a constant state of fear because of guns. No, we're not. Nor has it been during my entire life. This sounds like the kind of stereotype only someone that doesn't live here believes... the kind of stereotyping that allows you to say, "we're so much better than them!" Oh sure, there are some that are and there are some places, though relatively few, where you probably ought to be. But if gun availability is the root of the problem as you seem to be suggesting, you simply aren't thinking very deeply about the reality in context with history. Guns are more regulated now in US than at any other time in its history (OK, given some modest ebb and flow in laws passed and litigation over the past few decades). But do you really think that during its entire 248 year history the entire country has been in a state of constant fear? If increased gun prohibitions are the answer to lawlessness certainly that fear must have been terrifically more pronounced in the past and we should already have a highly regulated gun ownership regime. I find it highly unlikely that my ancestor's ancestors were shaken to their core for fear of being shot (and some of my family goes back to the 1850s wild west in Utah!) Gun availability in the US is simply not a recent phenomena. They use to teach shooting courses in some public high schools no less. Suggesting that after a hundred years of ever increasing gun regulation that somehow guns are the problem is just silly.
  - sanswork 2y ago
    It is hard to see when you live in the culture but as someone who lives outside it but has spent a lot of time living in the US you really are constantly in fear of violence. You can even see it in the comments by people here when gun restrictions are suggested. So yes, for the whole history of america you lot have been in a state of perpetual fear of things you believe your guns will protect you from which have only shown to be made worse by your dependence on guns.
reducesuffering 2y ago
> economically better off > inextricably tied to the unique ethno-cultural characteristics > scots-irish borderer culture Hate to break it to you but the scots-irish centers of checks notes West Virginia and Bakersfield, CA are not the economic powerhouses of the USA like the Northeast or CA. Gun ownership areas and GDP in the US are almost entirely negatively-correlated.
- wyager 2y ago
  The scots-irish were one of the 4 largest ethnic groups at the time of the declaration of independence and are arguably the single biggest differentiating factor from other anglo colonies like aus and NZ. Not sure where you're getting your demography from Rural areas have higher GDP, yes, but not relevant
  - reducesuffering 2y ago
    > arguably the single biggest differentiating factor from other anglo colonies like aus and NZ. Not the gigantic, habitable, natural resource filled landmass?! I know about the Puritans, Quakers, and Cavaliers. I've read Albion's Seed. Take a look at Scots-Irish demography: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotch-Irish_Americans#/media/File:Census_Bureau_Scotch-Irish_Ancestry_in_the_United_States.gif https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotch-Irish_Americans#/media/... You think that correlates to areas of higher US GDP?
  - defrost 2y ago
    Roughly a third of convicts sent to Australia were Irish, a good number political (Fennians), in the 1891 census the Irish made up about 27 percent of the immigrants from the British Isles. Scotland accounted for roughly 12 percent. Together the Scots-Irish block in pre 1900 Australia was comparable to that in colonial America circa Indpendance - some US States had a greater weighting than others. The two countries were intertwined: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalpa_rescue https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalpa_rescue
    - wyager 2y ago

by wyager 2y ago

sanswork 2y ago

The whole country is in a constant state of fear because of guns. Almost every justification I've seen is about a right to protect yourselves from others with guns but you can't seem to understand that most people in western countries never have to worry about this. I don't ever leave my house worried about being shot or being in a position where a gun would help. You keep adding more guns talking about how you need them to protect yourselves from the other guns and things just keep getting worse and worse. You're on a downward spiral of gun violence and fear. You talk about wealth but it's not evenly distributed at all and there is a reason your richest live in walled off communities and your poorest die early due to lack of access to preventative medicine and quality nutrition. Wealth means little when you live with a constant threat of violence, it's like being a billionaire in China or Russia.

tekknik 2y ago
> The whole country is in a constant state of fear because of guns. Most of us are not living in fear. If you say you rarely have to protect yourself then you’re defeating your own argument. the problem is the rhetoric from left media. they need to calm down and quit driving deranged people to action.
- sanswork 2y ago
  >or, and more than likely, people want guns to ensure they’re not the victim, given police only respond to crimes that have already happened and rarely prevent crimes. That is you in another comment in this post. You are literally describing living in fear. For most people in the west the worry about needing to protect themselves never factors into their life it just isn't something we need to worry about, this constant fear is a distinctly American issue.
  - lobocinza 2y ago
    If you consider South America to be America, I can say that Brazilians constantly live in fear despite strict gun control laws and criminals have no trouble obtaining whatever they want.
    - sanswork 2y ago
      I'm referring to western countries above.
      - lobocinza 2y ago
        You are cherry-picking data.
        sanswork 2y ago
        Yes, otherwise I wouldn't have specified western countries. I'm comparing like for like.
  - tekknik 2y ago
    What did I say about fear? Did you confuse posters?
    - sanswork 2y ago
      >people want guns to ensure they’re not the victim
sbuttgereit 2y ago
> The whole country is in a constant state of fear because of guns. No, we're not. Nor has it been during my entire life. This sounds like the kind of stereotype only someone that doesn't live here believes... the kind of stereotyping that allows you to say, "we're so much better than them!" Oh sure, there are some that are and there are some places, though relatively few, where you probably ought to be. But if gun availability is the root of the problem as you seem to be suggesting, you simply aren't thinking very deeply about the reality in context with history. Guns are more regulated now in US than at any other time in its history (OK, given some modest ebb and flow in laws passed and litigation over the past few decades). But do you really think that during its entire 248 year history the entire country has been in a state of constant fear? If increased gun prohibitions are the answer to lawlessness certainly that fear must have been terrifically more pronounced in the past and we should already have a highly regulated gun ownership regime. I find it highly unlikely that my ancestor's ancestors were shaken to their core for fear of being shot (and some of my family goes back to the 1850s wild west in Utah!) Gun availability in the US is simply not a recent phenomena. They use to teach shooting courses in some public high schools no less. Suggesting that after a hundred years of ever increasing gun regulation that somehow guns are the problem is just silly.
- sanswork 2y ago
  It is hard to see when you live in the culture but as someone who lives outside it but has spent a lot of time living in the US you really are constantly in fear of violence. You can even see it in the comments by people here when gun restrictions are suggested. So yes, for the whole history of america you lot have been in a state of perpetual fear of things you believe your guns will protect you from which have only shown to be made worse by your dependence on guns.

reducesuffering 2y ago

> economically better off > inextricably tied to the unique ethno-cultural characteristics > scots-irish borderer culture Hate to break it to you but the scots-irish centers of checks notes West Virginia and Bakersfield, CA are not the economic powerhouses of the USA like the Northeast or CA. Gun ownership areas and GDP in the US are almost entirely negatively-correlated.

wyager 2y ago
The scots-irish were one of the 4 largest ethnic groups at the time of the declaration of independence and are arguably the single biggest differentiating factor from other anglo colonies like aus and NZ. Not sure where you're getting your demography from Rural areas have higher GDP, yes, but not relevant
- reducesuffering 2y ago
  > arguably the single biggest differentiating factor from other anglo colonies like aus and NZ. Not the gigantic, habitable, natural resource filled landmass?! I know about the Puritans, Quakers, and Cavaliers. I've read Albion's Seed. Take a look at Scots-Irish demography: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotch-Irish_Americans#/media/File:Census_Bureau_Scotch-Irish_Ancestry_in_the_United_States.gif https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotch-Irish_Americans#/media/... You think that correlates to areas of higher US GDP?
- defrost 2y ago
  Roughly a third of convicts sent to Australia were Irish, a good number political (Fennians), in the 1891 census the Irish made up about 27 percent of the immigrants from the British Isles. Scotland accounted for roughly 12 percent. Together the Scots-Irish block in pre 1900 Australia was comparable to that in colonial America circa Indpendance - some US States had a greater weighting than others. The two countries were intertwined: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalpa_rescue https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalpa_rescue
  - wyager 2y ago