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From what I’ve read, liquid hydrogen isn’t a great option due to the energy required to create it. Where does that energy come from?

analog31 2y ago
Commercially viable hydrogen production starts with methane, goes through a combination of "steam reforming" followed by "shift reaction." So far as I know, liquefaction involves essentially mainstream cryogenic refrigeration.
- Loughla 2y ago
  And the energy for that comes from where?
  - analog31 2y ago
    Probably more methane. As mentioned in the neighboring post, hydrogen is an energy storage mechanism, not an energy source. It's also a feedstock for some other chemical processes. Unless we can tap into some sort of "too cheap to meter but too hard to transport" energy source in the future.
    - coryrc 2y ago
      I recently learned there are natural hydrogen deposits: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_hydrogen https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_hydrogen
      - analog31 2y ago
        This isn't shocking, given that there's hydrogen in the atmosphere.
        coryrc 2y ago
        I naïvely would have expected that's entirely from chemical reactions like lightning strikes.
        analog31 2y ago
        Ah good point, I hadn't thought about reactions above ground.
- wrycoder 2y ago
  Hydrogen is just a “battery” for energy storage. The ultimate goal is to produce “green” hydrogen by cracking water using solar energy - either via photovoltaics or developing a way through bioengineering photosynthesis.
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    > ultimate goal is to produce “green” hydrogen by cracking water using solar energy It’s miraculous how the gas industry succeeded where clean coal failed. There will be no green hydrogen. It’s a veneer. That the same folks building LNG terminals are pushing hydrogen isn’t a coïncidence. Even if we get a green hydrogen economy, there will constantly be an incentive to adulterate the supply.
avmich 2y ago
Can be from solar cells, the cheapest option today.
- wenc 2y ago
  Green hydrogen (from renewables) is not the cheapest option to my knowledge. In fact it is not yet cost-competitive. The electrolysis process is not still efficient today (but improving) and does not yet have scale, and the cost is several times SMR-produced hydrogen. Most economical hydrogen is produced through SMR or as a byproduct.
  - avmich 2y ago
    That could be true, but the question was > From what I’ve read, liquid hydrogen isn’t a great option due to the energy required to create it. Where does that energy come from? and to get the cheapest energy, not the cheapest hydrogen, today one would surely consider solar. Having said that, hydrogen could be interested as more ecology friendly fuel, which may rule out the commercially cheapest, but not clean enough, options.
- defrost 2y ago
  To produce 640 tonnes of renewable hydrogen per annum takes: https://www.energy.gov.au/news-media/news/australias-first-large-scale-hydrogen-plant-be-built-pilbara https://www.energy.gov.au/news-media/news/australias-first-l... Current project status: https://arena.gov.au/projects/yuri-renewable-hydrogen-to-ammonia-project/ https://arena.gov.au/projects/yuri-renewable-hydrogen-to-amm... Related (Australian) hydrogen energy projects: https://arena.gov.au/projects/?technology=hydrogen https://arena.gov.au/projects/?technology=hydrogen (and a few other largish projects with no government funding)

analog31 2y ago

Commercially viable hydrogen production starts with methane, goes through a combination of "steam reforming" followed by "shift reaction." So far as I know, liquefaction involves essentially mainstream cryogenic refrigeration.

Loughla 2y ago
And the energy for that comes from where?
- analog31 2y ago
  Probably more methane. As mentioned in the neighboring post, hydrogen is an energy storage mechanism, not an energy source. It's also a feedstock for some other chemical processes. Unless we can tap into some sort of "too cheap to meter but too hard to transport" energy source in the future.
  - coryrc 2y ago
    I recently learned there are natural hydrogen deposits: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_hydrogen https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_hydrogen
    - analog31 2y ago
      This isn't shocking, given that there's hydrogen in the atmosphere.
      - coryrc 2y ago
        I naïvely would have expected that's entirely from chemical reactions like lightning strikes.
        analog31 2y ago
        Ah good point, I hadn't thought about reactions above ground.
wrycoder 2y ago
Hydrogen is just a “battery” for energy storage. The ultimate goal is to produce “green” hydrogen by cracking water using solar energy - either via photovoltaics or developing a way through bioengineering photosynthesis.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > ultimate goal is to produce “green” hydrogen by cracking water using solar energy It’s miraculous how the gas industry succeeded where clean coal failed. There will be no green hydrogen. It’s a veneer. That the same folks building LNG terminals are pushing hydrogen isn’t a coïncidence. Even if we get a green hydrogen economy, there will constantly be an incentive to adulterate the supply.

avmich 2y ago

Can be from solar cells, the cheapest option today.

wenc 2y ago
Green hydrogen (from renewables) is not the cheapest option to my knowledge. In fact it is not yet cost-competitive. The electrolysis process is not still efficient today (but improving) and does not yet have scale, and the cost is several times SMR-produced hydrogen. Most economical hydrogen is produced through SMR or as a byproduct.
- avmich 2y ago
  That could be true, but the question was > From what I’ve read, liquid hydrogen isn’t a great option due to the energy required to create it. Where does that energy come from? and to get the cheapest energy, not the cheapest hydrogen, today one would surely consider solar. Having said that, hydrogen could be interested as more ecology friendly fuel, which may rule out the commercially cheapest, but not clean enough, options.
defrost 2y ago
To produce 640 tonnes of renewable hydrogen per annum takes: https://www.energy.gov.au/news-media/news/australias-first-large-scale-hydrogen-plant-be-built-pilbara https://www.energy.gov.au/news-media/news/australias-first-l... Current project status: https://arena.gov.au/projects/yuri-renewable-hydrogen-to-ammonia-project/ https://arena.gov.au/projects/yuri-renewable-hydrogen-to-amm... Related (Australian) hydrogen energy projects: https://arena.gov.au/projects/?technology=hydrogen https://arena.gov.au/projects/?technology=hydrogen (and a few other largish projects with no government funding)