4 ms·

The NSA Is Defeated by a 1950s Tape Recorder. Can You Help Them?

72 points by rolph 2y ago

486sx33 2y ago
To the author: perhaps if you want this so badly you could source the machine and officially donate it to the NSA yourself and then reference the donation paperwork in your next FOIA . I doubt trashing the NSA all over tech media will get you what you want.. plus I don’t want extra bureaucrats hired just to spend more money on obscure FOIA requests..
- rocqua 2y ago
  Ideally, the response isn't to hire more people to fight the FOIA requests, but instead to honor the requests.
  - rlpb 2y ago
    The NSA said: "NSA is not required to find or obtain new technology (outdated or current) in order to process a request" (from https://www.muckrock.com/news/archives/2024/jul/10/grace-hopper-lost-lecture-found-nsa/ https://www.muckrock.com/news/archives/2024/jul/10/grace-hop...) That seems reasonable to me. The FOIA is about citizen oversight of government, and spending reasonable amount of taxpayer funds on doing that. This request would exceed that remit. As another commenter said, FOIA is quite rightly not an appropriate approach to demand public funds to be spent here.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - mjevans 2y ago
      I agree -HOWEVER- the government should retain the ability to transmit official records. This might include the transcription of outdated formats and technologies to new formats which are supported. It SHOULD also include release to the public domain BEFORE it becomes a burden to review the records.
      - fragmede 2y ago
        that's the library of Congress' job though, not the NSA via the FOIA's job. the LoC has the mission and resources to do exactly that.
- pessimizer 2y ago
  The NSA should have the ability to answer any FOIA request. Massive federal agencies shouldn't be able to plead laziness.
  - subjectsigma 2y ago
    No, this is not at all how FOIA works. You cannot request copyrighted, classified, sensitive, or otherwise protected information. You cannot FOIA something that doesn’t exist and you also can’t force the government to do research on your behalf. If you consider this reasonable then I don’t think it’s a super big jump to say FOIA requests should not force the government to source expensive or hard to acquire equipment.
    - Dig1t 2y ago
      >classified, sensitive, or otherwise protected information Do you think this footage falls under any of these categories? What is to stop the agency from just saying every request is "sensitive"? Without any accountability, what is the point of the law in the first place? This behavior does not seem to be in the spirit of the FOIA act itself. This agency is _extremely_ well funded, they can afford to accommodate this request.
      - mcswell 2y ago
        > Do you think this footage falls under any of these categories? Without knowing the details surrounding the talk, it's hard to say, but given that the NSA (not the Library of Congress, or the National Archives, or DEC, or some university) owns the tape, it's quite possible. What the NSA said is that they would have to listen to it to decide whether it falls under any of those categories. I think they do that (listen, read,...) to everything they release under FOIA, precisely because they deal with classified information.
      - rurban 2y ago
        Guys, the talk is unclassified if you care to read the article. It's about the resources. They won't digitize everything for obscure FOIA requests on old tapes unless some billionaire spends it for them.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
middlefing 2y ago
[flagged]
toomuchtodo 2y ago
Related: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40926428 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40926428
phendrenad2 2y ago
FOIA feels like the wrong way to go about this. I think working with the US National Archives or the Library of Congress might be better, as what people really want here are of historical interest and not citizen oversight of government (the ultimate purpose of the FOIA).
- sandworm101 2y ago
  Find and restore the necessary machine. Do up a blog/website about the project. Share the link on HN. The NSA nerds reading this will find it eventually and get in contact. (Everyone at NoSuchAgency is a total tech nerd. They all know about HN, even moreso than those at NotAnotherStupidAcronym.)
- tgsovlerkhgsel 2y ago
  It might, but the FOIA process might also be the best (or only) process that allows the NSA to practically release the tapes. Even a bureaucratic process that is a poor fit for a problem at hand can be easier for a bureaucratic organization to handle than an ad-hoc, nonstandard request. Trying through FOIA first certainly seems reasonable.
- pseudo0 2y ago
  The NSA has their own museum, has anyone emailed them to ask about this? https://www.nsa.gov/museum/ https://www.nsa.gov/museum/ They seem more likely to be able to deal with such a tricky request.
pronoiac 2y ago
Someone reached out to the FOIA liaison asking how an individual or organization might help, and got the reply that it's outside their scope, and to contact the NSA directly. Writing a paper letter to the NSA and cc'ing congresspeople might be good.
analog31 2y ago
Is the audio on a separate track, that could be recovered more easily then the video? Also, was this before or after the invention of helical scan?
imglorp 2y ago
It's interesting that someone knows about the artifact in there, and its format.
wizardforhire 2y ago
Geez I know of at least 2 dozen 1” machines off the top of my head, even more 2” machines and a few people including myself who can make new heads for them from scratch. NSA should try harder
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
Animats 2y ago
The National Archives and Records Administration has standard procedures and approved vendors for this.[1] One of their approved vendors, Colorlab, has 1" type C equipment.[2] Colorlab is conveniently located just outside the Capitol Beltway, about 20 miles west of NSA HQ at Fort Meade. Colorlab does preservation and conversion work for the Library of Congress, Warner Bros., Universal, NBC, The New York Public Library, Paramount, HBO, etc. NARA has a standard form for government agencies requesting this service.[3] It looks like it's not even charged against the sending agency - Archives picks up the bill. The linked article says this was recorded in 1982, so it probably was recorded on Ampex 1" Type C, which was pro-grade at the time. Not sure how the 1950s got into this. 1950s video tape would be 2" Quad, which Colorlab can also read. [1] https://www.archives.gov/preservation/formats/video-playback-digitize.html https://www.archives.gov/preservation/formats/video-playback... [2] http://www.colorlab.com/video/video_digitization.html http://www.colorlab.com/video/video_digitization.html [3] https://www.archives.gov/research/order/item-approval-form.html https://www.archives.gov/research/order/item-approval-form.h...
rurban 2y ago
If you follow the https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/24796009-foia-request-118587-grace-hopper-lecture#document/p3 https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/24796009-foia-reques... link, you see that's already classified as uncl, and ready to be released. But first someone needs to digitize it for free. They sure do have the equipment, but probably not the resources for such requests of questionable value. She gave hundreds of such talks.

72 points by rolph 2y ago

To the author: perhaps if you want this so badly you could source the machine and officially donate it to the NSA yourself and then reference the donation paperwork in your next FOIA . I doubt trashing the NSA all over tech media will get you what you want.. plus I don’t want extra bureaucrats hired just to spend more money on obscure FOIA requests..

rocqua 2y ago
Ideally, the response isn't to hire more people to fight the FOIA requests, but instead to honor the requests.
- rlpb 2y ago
  The NSA said: "NSA is not required to find or obtain new technology (outdated or current) in order to process a request" (from https://www.muckrock.com/news/archives/2024/jul/10/grace-hopper-lost-lecture-found-nsa/ https://www.muckrock.com/news/archives/2024/jul/10/grace-hop...) That seems reasonable to me. The FOIA is about citizen oversight of government, and spending reasonable amount of taxpayer funds on doing that. This request would exceed that remit. As another commenter said, FOIA is quite rightly not an appropriate approach to demand public funds to be spent here.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - mjevans 2y ago
    I agree -HOWEVER- the government should retain the ability to transmit official records. This might include the transcription of outdated formats and technologies to new formats which are supported. It SHOULD also include release to the public domain BEFORE it becomes a burden to review the records.
    - fragmede 2y ago
      that's the library of Congress' job though, not the NSA via the FOIA's job. the LoC has the mission and resources to do exactly that.
pessimizer 2y ago
The NSA should have the ability to answer any FOIA request. Massive federal agencies shouldn't be able to plead laziness.
- subjectsigma 2y ago
  No, this is not at all how FOIA works. You cannot request copyrighted, classified, sensitive, or otherwise protected information. You cannot FOIA something that doesn’t exist and you also can’t force the government to do research on your behalf. If you consider this reasonable then I don’t think it’s a super big jump to say FOIA requests should not force the government to source expensive or hard to acquire equipment.
  - Dig1t 2y ago
    >classified, sensitive, or otherwise protected information Do you think this footage falls under any of these categories? What is to stop the agency from just saying every request is "sensitive"? Without any accountability, what is the point of the law in the first place? This behavior does not seem to be in the spirit of the FOIA act itself. This agency is _extremely_ well funded, they can afford to accommodate this request.
    - mcswell 2y ago
      > Do you think this footage falls under any of these categories? Without knowing the details surrounding the talk, it's hard to say, but given that the NSA (not the Library of Congress, or the National Archives, or DEC, or some university) owns the tape, it's quite possible. What the NSA said is that they would have to listen to it to decide whether it falls under any of those categories. I think they do that (listen, read,...) to everything they release under FOIA, precisely because they deal with classified information.
    - rurban 2y ago
      Guys, the talk is unclassified if you care to read the article. It's about the resources. They won't digitize everything for obscure FOIA requests on old tapes unless some billionaire spends it for them.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

middlefing 2y ago

[flagged]

toomuchtodo 2y ago

Related: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40926428 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40926428

phendrenad2 2y ago

FOIA feels like the wrong way to go about this. I think working with the US National Archives or the Library of Congress might be better, as what people really want here are of historical interest and not citizen oversight of government (the ultimate purpose of the FOIA).

sandworm101 2y ago
Find and restore the necessary machine. Do up a blog/website about the project. Share the link on HN. The NSA nerds reading this will find it eventually and get in contact. (Everyone at NoSuchAgency is a total tech nerd. They all know about HN, even moreso than those at NotAnotherStupidAcronym.)
tgsovlerkhgsel 2y ago
It might, but the FOIA process might also be the best (or only) process that allows the NSA to practically release the tapes. Even a bureaucratic process that is a poor fit for a problem at hand can be easier for a bureaucratic organization to handle than an ad-hoc, nonstandard request. Trying through FOIA first certainly seems reasonable.
pseudo0 2y ago
The NSA has their own museum, has anyone emailed them to ask about this? https://www.nsa.gov/museum/ https://www.nsa.gov/museum/ They seem more likely to be able to deal with such a tricky request.

pronoiac 2y ago

Someone reached out to the FOIA liaison asking how an individual or organization might help, and got the reply that it's outside their scope, and to contact the NSA directly. Writing a paper letter to the NSA and cc'ing congresspeople might be good.

analog31 2y ago

Is the audio on a separate track, that could be recovered more easily then the video? Also, was this before or after the invention of helical scan?

imglorp 2y ago

It's interesting that someone knows about the artifact in there, and its format.

wizardforhire 2y ago

Geez I know of at least 2 dozen 1” machines off the top of my head, even more 2” machines and a few people including myself who can make new heads for them from scratch. NSA should try harder

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

Animats 2y ago

The National Archives and Records Administration has standard procedures and approved vendors for this.[1] One of their approved vendors, Colorlab, has 1" type C equipment.[2] Colorlab is conveniently located just outside the Capitol Beltway, about 20 miles west of NSA HQ at Fort Meade. Colorlab does preservation and conversion work for the Library of Congress, Warner Bros., Universal, NBC, The New York Public Library, Paramount, HBO, etc. NARA has a standard form for government agencies requesting this service.[3] It looks like it's not even charged against the sending agency - Archives picks up the bill. The linked article says this was recorded in 1982, so it probably was recorded on Ampex 1" Type C, which was pro-grade at the time. Not sure how the 1950s got into this. 1950s video tape would be 2" Quad, which Colorlab can also read. [1] https://www.archives.gov/preservation/formats/video-playback-digitize.html https://www.archives.gov/preservation/formats/video-playback... [2] http://www.colorlab.com/video/video_digitization.html http://www.colorlab.com/video/video_digitization.html [3] https://www.archives.gov/research/order/item-approval-form.html https://www.archives.gov/research/order/item-approval-form.h...

rurban 2y ago

If you follow the https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/24796009-foia-request-118587-grace-hopper-lecture#document/p3 https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/24796009-foia-reques... link, you see that's already classified as uncl, and ready to be released. But first someone needs to digitize it for free. They sure do have the equipment, but probably not the resources for such requests of questionable value. She gave hundreds of such talks.