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Another poster pointed out that the cost of moving lines underground is really only a one time fee of about $5 per person per month for about 10 years. This doe

Another poster pointed out that the cost of moving lines underground is really only a one time fee of about $5 per person per month for about 10 years. This does not seem too expensive for a permanent increase in reliability. One thing I will miss about living in Manhattan is the power never ever went out, at least not due to the distribution grid. And, it's a minor, minor thing, but as a bonus, having lines out of sight is very nice.

jncfhnb 2y ago
Per person per month for 10 years is a ridiculous unit to choose. Europe benefits from being very dense. The US grid is way more spread out. Undergrounding costs are around $1M per mile. The US has millions of miles of lines.
- xboxnolifes 2y ago
  Look at the numbers and it's not so crazy. This is a last mile issue, not a full grid issue.
  - chgs 2y ago
    Americans like to think they’re a special case. Houston has a higher density than say Magdeburg
    - jncfhnb 2y ago
      The climate and suitability for under grounding in Magdeburg is vastly different.
  - jncfhnb 2y ago
    I’m only including distribution numbers in my figures here. Transmission does not make sense to underground.
- fragmede 2y ago
  I get that America is big, but the amortized per-person cost is what's relevant. If something costs $10 M per mile, but there are a million people per mile, suddenly that's not all that expensive. I'd pay more than $10 to not have my power go out for a week after a big storm that's likely to happen again in a few weeks and next year and the year after. A backup generator costs way more than $10.
  - jncfhnb 2y ago
    The amortized per person cost is obviously not going to be constant when the demographic density and line mileage changes. That’s why it’s a foolish standard There’s NEVER 1M customers per mile in a distribution system. There’s only going to be a few thousand per substation. Half of the line miles will have customer counts in the tens or ones.
- galdosdi 2y ago
  > ridiculous unit to choose. ...but... that's like, uh, how projects like this actually get financed. On a per customer (which I know is distinct from per person) and per monthly bill basis, capitalized and amortized. Why would I use a lump sum unit when that's not how it's going to be paid for, or a per distance unit when pieces of dirt don't pay money, people do? Pal, this is just how basic corporate accounting works, something you might like to look into if you are interested in opining on what units are best for comparing capital costs.
  - jncfhnb 2y ago
    I already responded to that two days ago in adjacent replies. You’re also completely wrong. Utilities do not get to pass on costs to specific customers. It is, at best, just a compelling point with regulators to build it into the rate case for capital spending.
    - galdosdi 2y ago
      So? That just means the regulators are part of the decision. If the stakeholders (regulators plus utility managers) choose to, they can do this, and it is affordable. If it takes an act of legislature to make it work, whatever. The point is there's no technological barrier, just made up paper barriers.
fnfjfk 2y ago
Were you here in 2012 for "SoPo"? https://ny.curbed.com/2017/10/29/16560706/hurricane-sandy-anniversary-manhattan-power-outage-photos https://ny.curbed.com/2017/10/29/16560706/hurricane-sandy-an...
- galdosdi 2y ago
  Yeah. My job at the time was in the fidi and we had power trucks lining the streets for months. I saw the cars floating upside down with my own eyes. It was quite a time. Anyway: That is not the comeback you think it is. New York was unprepared for that and intra not designed for saltwater flooding because nobody had ever expected that kind of weather to make it up here. It triggered a lot of changes now that New York knows it needs to be ready for serious hurricanes and saltwater flooding Also I never heard the term SoPO before. We called it hurricane sandy.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
chgs 2y ago
I was in New York during hurricane sandy, staying in a hotel on I think 28th street. Really weird seeing complete darknesss to the south with just a march of flashlights coming uptown to charge their phones in Duane Reade.

jncfhnb 2y ago

Per person per month for 10 years is a ridiculous unit to choose. Europe benefits from being very dense. The US grid is way more spread out. Undergrounding costs are around $1M per mile. The US has millions of miles of lines.

xboxnolifes 2y ago
Look at the numbers and it's not so crazy. This is a last mile issue, not a full grid issue.
- chgs 2y ago
  Americans like to think they’re a special case. Houston has a higher density than say Magdeburg
  - jncfhnb 2y ago
    The climate and suitability for under grounding in Magdeburg is vastly different.
- jncfhnb 2y ago
  I’m only including distribution numbers in my figures here. Transmission does not make sense to underground.
fragmede 2y ago
I get that America is big, but the amortized per-person cost is what's relevant. If something costs $10 M per mile, but there are a million people per mile, suddenly that's not all that expensive. I'd pay more than $10 to not have my power go out for a week after a big storm that's likely to happen again in a few weeks and next year and the year after. A backup generator costs way more than $10.
- jncfhnb 2y ago
  The amortized per person cost is obviously not going to be constant when the demographic density and line mileage changes. That’s why it’s a foolish standard There’s NEVER 1M customers per mile in a distribution system. There’s only going to be a few thousand per substation. Half of the line miles will have customer counts in the tens or ones.
galdosdi 2y ago
> ridiculous unit to choose. ...but... that's like, uh, how projects like this actually get financed. On a per customer (which I know is distinct from per person) and per monthly bill basis, capitalized and amortized. Why would I use a lump sum unit when that's not how it's going to be paid for, or a per distance unit when pieces of dirt don't pay money, people do? Pal, this is just how basic corporate accounting works, something you might like to look into if you are interested in opining on what units are best for comparing capital costs.
- jncfhnb 2y ago
  I already responded to that two days ago in adjacent replies. You’re also completely wrong. Utilities do not get to pass on costs to specific customers. It is, at best, just a compelling point with regulators to build it into the rate case for capital spending.
  - galdosdi 2y ago
    So? That just means the regulators are part of the decision. If the stakeholders (regulators plus utility managers) choose to, they can do this, and it is affordable. If it takes an act of legislature to make it work, whatever. The point is there's no technological barrier, just made up paper barriers.

fnfjfk 2y ago

Were you here in 2012 for "SoPo"? https://ny.curbed.com/2017/10/29/16560706/hurricane-sandy-anniversary-manhattan-power-outage-photos https://ny.curbed.com/2017/10/29/16560706/hurricane-sandy-an...

galdosdi 2y ago
Yeah. My job at the time was in the fidi and we had power trucks lining the streets for months. I saw the cars floating upside down with my own eyes. It was quite a time. Anyway: That is not the comeback you think it is. New York was unprepared for that and intra not designed for saltwater flooding because nobody had ever expected that kind of weather to make it up here. It triggered a lot of changes now that New York knows it needs to be ready for serious hurricanes and saltwater flooding Also I never heard the term SoPO before. We called it hurricane sandy.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

chgs 2y ago

I was in New York during hurricane sandy, staying in a hotel on I think 28th street. Really weird seeing complete darknesss to the south with just a march of flashlights coming uptown to charge their phones in Duane Reade.