4 ms·

Germany has overengineered and expensive utilities, but I'm happy sometimes that all power and telephone lines are underground.

k8sToGo 2y ago
Utilities are much cheaper in Germany than for example California. At least it was when I lived there.
galdosdi 2y ago
Another poster pointed out that the cost of moving lines underground is really only a one time fee of about $5 per person per month for about 10 years. This does not seem too expensive for a permanent increase in reliability. One thing I will miss about living in Manhattan is the power never ever went out, at least not due to the distribution grid. And, it's a minor, minor thing, but as a bonus, having lines out of sight is very nice.
- jncfhnb 2y ago
  Per person per month for 10 years is a ridiculous unit to choose. Europe benefits from being very dense. The US grid is way more spread out. Undergrounding costs are around $1M per mile. The US has millions of miles of lines.
  - xboxnolifes 2y ago
    Look at the numbers and it's not so crazy. This is a last mile issue, not a full grid issue.
    - chgs 2y ago
      Americans like to think they’re a special case. Houston has a higher density than say Magdeburg
      - jncfhnb 2y ago
        The climate and suitability for under grounding in Magdeburg is vastly different.
    - jncfhnb 2y ago
      I’m only including distribution numbers in my figures here. Transmission does not make sense to underground.
  - fragmede 2y ago
    I get that America is big, but the amortized per-person cost is what's relevant. If something costs $10 M per mile, but there are a million people per mile, suddenly that's not all that expensive. I'd pay more than $10 to not have my power go out for a week after a big storm that's likely to happen again in a few weeks and next year and the year after. A backup generator costs way more than $10.
    - jncfhnb 2y ago
      The amortized per person cost is obviously not going to be constant when the demographic density and line mileage changes. That’s why it’s a foolish standard There’s NEVER 1M customers per mile in a distribution system. There’s only going to be a few thousand per substation. Half of the line miles will have customer counts in the tens or ones.
  - galdosdi 2y ago
    > ridiculous unit to choose. ...but... that's like, uh, how projects like this actually get financed. On a per customer (which I know is distinct from per person) and per monthly bill basis, capitalized and amortized. Why would I use a lump sum unit when that's not how it's going to be paid for, or a per distance unit when pieces of dirt don't pay money, people do? Pal, this is just how basic corporate accounting works, something you might like to look into if you are interested in opining on what units are best for comparing capital costs.
    - jncfhnb 2y ago
      I already responded to that two days ago in adjacent replies. You’re also completely wrong. Utilities do not get to pass on costs to specific customers. It is, at best, just a compelling point with regulators to build it into the rate case for capital spending.
      - galdosdi 2y ago
        So? That just means the regulators are part of the decision. If the stakeholders (regulators plus utility managers) choose to, they can do this, and it is affordable. If it takes an act of legislature to make it work, whatever. The point is there's no technological barrier, just made up paper barriers.
- fnfjfk 2y ago
  Were you here in 2012 for "SoPo"? https://ny.curbed.com/2017/10/29/16560706/hurricane-sandy-anniversary-manhattan-power-outage-photos https://ny.curbed.com/2017/10/29/16560706/hurricane-sandy-an...
  - galdosdi 2y ago
    Yeah. My job at the time was in the fidi and we had power trucks lining the streets for months. I saw the cars floating upside down with my own eyes. It was quite a time. Anyway: That is not the comeback you think it is. New York was unprepared for that and intra not designed for saltwater flooding because nobody had ever expected that kind of weather to make it up here. It triggered a lot of changes now that New York knows it needs to be ready for serious hurricanes and saltwater flooding Also I never heard the term SoPO before. We called it hurricane sandy.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
- chgs 2y ago
  I was in New York during hurricane sandy, staying in a hotel on I think 28th street. Really weird seeing complete darknesss to the south with just a march of flashlights coming uptown to charge their phones in Duane Reade.
akira2501 2y ago
The water table in Germany and the water table in Texas are two different things. Notably, the city is right next to a giant body of salty ocean water, which is why they get hurricanes in the first place, but it also severely complicates the process of creating underground utilities.
- sangnoir 2y ago
  This argument would be more convincing if Houston didn't have any underground infrastructure.
- stevenwoo 2y ago
  Downtown Houston has a big underground tunnel system connecting building so people don’t have to walk outside. The first big plan to reduce flooding in Houston was to create tunnels similar in size to the ones under Tokyo to funnel water from Houston area to gulf. https://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/houston-texas/environment/article/A-30-billion-vision-to-build-eight-massive-flood-17247151.php https://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/houston-texas/environm...
issa 2y ago
My wife is from Germany and one of the weirdest things for her in moving to the US is that the power goes out.
hooloovoo_zoo 2y ago
Much more complicated in Houston than Germany. Aside from the density which has been mentioned, Houston regularly floods so the lines would frequently be underwater. Plus, the rise and fall of the water table causes the ground to expand and contract. That’s why the sidewalks are constantly buckling.
Thorrez 2y ago
Does Germany get as bad of storms as the US? This article seems to say the US has worse weather than Europe: > the colonists who arrived in the New World from Europe during the seventeenth century and found North American weather to be, in a word, hellish. https://www.neh.gov/article/storm-patrol https://www.neh.gov/article/storm-patrol
- binkethy 2y ago
  What a weird take. Europe has extreme weather to match North America. Any Texans wanting to talk about their special case can have a look at Iberia and its meteorology, for example. The notion that North American weather is anomalistic is false.
  - Thorrez 2y ago
    I'm not the one that came up with the idea that the US has worse weather. I got the idea from that article. >The volatile weather in the eastern United States differs from the more moderate climates of western Europe because it is largely controlled by eastward-flowing air masses that approach over land instead of air masses that arrive from over the ocean and cause temperatures to shift more gradually. Europe doesn't have hurricanes. Europe has 1/4 as many tornadoes as the US. Which part of Iberia's weather are you referring to?

k8sToGo 2y ago

Utilities are much cheaper in Germany than for example California. At least it was when I lived there.

galdosdi 2y ago

Another poster pointed out that the cost of moving lines underground is really only a one time fee of about $5 per person per month for about 10 years. This does not seem too expensive for a permanent increase in reliability. One thing I will miss about living in Manhattan is the power never ever went out, at least not due to the distribution grid. And, it's a minor, minor thing, but as a bonus, having lines out of sight is very nice.

jncfhnb 2y ago
Per person per month for 10 years is a ridiculous unit to choose. Europe benefits from being very dense. The US grid is way more spread out. Undergrounding costs are around $1M per mile. The US has millions of miles of lines.
- xboxnolifes 2y ago
  Look at the numbers and it's not so crazy. This is a last mile issue, not a full grid issue.
  - chgs 2y ago
    Americans like to think they’re a special case. Houston has a higher density than say Magdeburg
    - jncfhnb 2y ago
      The climate and suitability for under grounding in Magdeburg is vastly different.
  - jncfhnb 2y ago
    I’m only including distribution numbers in my figures here. Transmission does not make sense to underground.
- fragmede 2y ago
  I get that America is big, but the amortized per-person cost is what's relevant. If something costs $10 M per mile, but there are a million people per mile, suddenly that's not all that expensive. I'd pay more than $10 to not have my power go out for a week after a big storm that's likely to happen again in a few weeks and next year and the year after. A backup generator costs way more than $10.
  - jncfhnb 2y ago
    The amortized per person cost is obviously not going to be constant when the demographic density and line mileage changes. That’s why it’s a foolish standard There’s NEVER 1M customers per mile in a distribution system. There’s only going to be a few thousand per substation. Half of the line miles will have customer counts in the tens or ones.
- galdosdi 2y ago
  > ridiculous unit to choose. ...but... that's like, uh, how projects like this actually get financed. On a per customer (which I know is distinct from per person) and per monthly bill basis, capitalized and amortized. Why would I use a lump sum unit when that's not how it's going to be paid for, or a per distance unit when pieces of dirt don't pay money, people do? Pal, this is just how basic corporate accounting works, something you might like to look into if you are interested in opining on what units are best for comparing capital costs.
  - jncfhnb 2y ago
    I already responded to that two days ago in adjacent replies. You’re also completely wrong. Utilities do not get to pass on costs to specific customers. It is, at best, just a compelling point with regulators to build it into the rate case for capital spending.
    - galdosdi 2y ago
      So? That just means the regulators are part of the decision. If the stakeholders (regulators plus utility managers) choose to, they can do this, and it is affordable. If it takes an act of legislature to make it work, whatever. The point is there's no technological barrier, just made up paper barriers.
fnfjfk 2y ago
Were you here in 2012 for "SoPo"? https://ny.curbed.com/2017/10/29/16560706/hurricane-sandy-anniversary-manhattan-power-outage-photos https://ny.curbed.com/2017/10/29/16560706/hurricane-sandy-an...
- galdosdi 2y ago
  Yeah. My job at the time was in the fidi and we had power trucks lining the streets for months. I saw the cars floating upside down with my own eyes. It was quite a time. Anyway: That is not the comeback you think it is. New York was unprepared for that and intra not designed for saltwater flooding because nobody had ever expected that kind of weather to make it up here. It triggered a lot of changes now that New York knows it needs to be ready for serious hurricanes and saltwater flooding Also I never heard the term SoPO before. We called it hurricane sandy.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
chgs 2y ago
I was in New York during hurricane sandy, staying in a hotel on I think 28th street. Really weird seeing complete darknesss to the south with just a march of flashlights coming uptown to charge their phones in Duane Reade.

akira2501 2y ago

The water table in Germany and the water table in Texas are two different things. Notably, the city is right next to a giant body of salty ocean water, which is why they get hurricanes in the first place, but it also severely complicates the process of creating underground utilities.

sangnoir 2y ago
This argument would be more convincing if Houston didn't have any underground infrastructure.
stevenwoo 2y ago
Downtown Houston has a big underground tunnel system connecting building so people don’t have to walk outside. The first big plan to reduce flooding in Houston was to create tunnels similar in size to the ones under Tokyo to funnel water from Houston area to gulf. https://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/houston-texas/environment/article/A-30-billion-vision-to-build-eight-massive-flood-17247151.php https://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/houston-texas/environm...

issa 2y ago

My wife is from Germany and one of the weirdest things for her in moving to the US is that the power goes out.

hooloovoo_zoo 2y ago

Much more complicated in Houston than Germany. Aside from the density which has been mentioned, Houston regularly floods so the lines would frequently be underwater. Plus, the rise and fall of the water table causes the ground to expand and contract. That’s why the sidewalks are constantly buckling.

Thorrez 2y ago

Does Germany get as bad of storms as the US? This article seems to say the US has worse weather than Europe: > the colonists who arrived in the New World from Europe during the seventeenth century and found North American weather to be, in a word, hellish. https://www.neh.gov/article/storm-patrol https://www.neh.gov/article/storm-patrol

binkethy 2y ago
What a weird take. Europe has extreme weather to match North America. Any Texans wanting to talk about their special case can have a look at Iberia and its meteorology, for example. The notion that North American weather is anomalistic is false.
- Thorrez 2y ago
  I'm not the one that came up with the idea that the US has worse weather. I got the idea from that article. >The volatile weather in the eastern United States differs from the more moderate climates of western Europe because it is largely controlled by eastward-flowing air masses that approach over land instead of air masses that arrive from over the ocean and cause temperatures to shift more gradually. Europe doesn't have hurricanes. Europe has 1/4 as many tornadoes as the US. Which part of Iberia's weather are you referring to?