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I work fully remote, so I get a lot of non-close-friend socialization and "shop talk" from local meetups. It's extracurricular (more work), but I find there are

I work fully remote, so I get a lot of non-close-friend socialization and "shop talk" from local meetups. It's extracurricular (more work), but I find there are often more diverse topics and challenges to discuss outside of just 1 company. So I was recently at a meetup hosted by [pretty large US tech company] in [city pretty popular with tech workers] and some recruiters for the company were there. They said they were having challenges recruiting tech workers after a mandatory, full, 5-day-per-week return-to-office. When I friendlily asked what sort of benefits they've seen so far from it, they each spoke about how they personally liked in-person collaboration, the sort of chance encounters you get around the water cooler, etc. Not that there's acting wrong with that, it's just that I was expecting something along the lines of measurably better business outcomes, while it seemed they had internalized an RTO sales pitch to hiring prospects, which consisted of saying they liked it so much that they wanted it not only for themselves, but for others, too. That strikes me as a common mandatory RTO reasoning from leadership (I doubt the individual recruiters had much say in the decision): Results? IDK, I just want the other people to be here because I want it.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
thayne 2y ago
It seems like a lot of RTO proponents can't comprehend, or maybe don't care, that there are people who don't need to be surrounded by other people all the time, and who work better, and are happier if they are alone. Let people who want to work in an office work in an office, and let people who want to work from home work from home.
- Spartan-S63 2y ago
  > It seems like a lot of RTO proponents can't comprehend, or maybe don't care, that there are people who don't need to be surrounded by other people all the time, and who work better, and are happier if they are alone. This is a variation on the classic mismatch between introverts and extroverts, social expectations, and behaviors. It's just concentrated in the RTO vs remote debate. > Let people who want to work in an office work in an office, and let people who want to work from home work from home. This, 100%, if you can control for bias. The issue with the true optionality is that remote workers may get passed up for promotion or other opportunities because they're less physically present—even if they're the best fit for the opportunity. That's what makes it difficult to straddle both worlds. I guess one solution would be to have managers, paradoxically, never in the office more than 1-2 days a week to force more explicit interaction via remote conferencing, but that's a weird forcing function.
  - s1gsegv 2y ago
    Maybe the answer to the bias is to have entire teams as either fully in office or fully remote. At a certain level of management abstraction the physical presence wouldn’t be much of a bias anymore, I almost never see my VPs anyway. And for the people in-office trying to communicate with another team, this is not much different than the problem you have anyway with multiple offices even if everyone was in office. Then you can internally move to the team aligned with your working style. People do this now by switching to a company most aligned with their working style, but obviously this has major drawbacks and we probably don’t need to be that coarse.
  - ImPostingOnHN 2y ago
    > This is a variation on the classic mismatch between introverts and extroverts The issue isn't the "mismatch", because everyone is different. The issue arises when people who match 1 pattern force others who don't to follow the pattern anyways, particularly when the reasoning is selfish (I like it [because of X], so we're doing it, even if you don't like it). > The issue with the true optionality is that remote workers may get passed up for promotion or other opportunities because they're less physically present. A few points to touch upon here: - While that is indeed sometimes true, it's a problem of that specific company's culture, not of remote work (my current company promotes equally, for example). - It is indeed extra work to be "noticed" when you're remote, as it requires more than just sitting there and having a face that people can see. For me, this has meant developing myself in terms of delivering results and letting folks know how they're good for the company. IMHO these are pretty universally useful skills in business. - Not everyone is forever looking for another promotion, so that's another argument for letting them choose. > I guess one solution would be to have managers, paradoxically, never in the office more than 1-2 days a week to force more explicit interaction via remote conferencing, but that's a weird forcing function We hold our meetings with a video option, even when a couple people are in the office, and it doesn't feel weird. We are also effective at "huddling" around a screen shared digitally, to quickly swarm a problem. I have alternatively heard of companies incentivizing optionally hybrid workers to come in 2-3 specific days per week by providing perks like free meals on those days.
  - listenallyall 2y ago
- silverquiet 2y ago
  I'm introverted to the point that it weirds other people out, and permanent work from home drives me insane. When I do need to talk to someone, I really prefer to see if they're available at their desk and if so, talk with them in person where the "bandwidth" is highest. I do agree that for heads-down type work, it is nice to be able to shut out everything and concentrate.
listenallyall 2y ago
> local meetups Pandemic + work-from-home has killed many, many local meetups. It's great that some are still running where you live, but what was a great resource to meet colleagues, learn something useful, hear about open opportunities no longer exists in many places.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

thayne 2y ago

It seems like a lot of RTO proponents can't comprehend, or maybe don't care, that there are people who don't need to be surrounded by other people all the time, and who work better, and are happier if they are alone. Let people who want to work in an office work in an office, and let people who want to work from home work from home.

Spartan-S63 2y ago
> It seems like a lot of RTO proponents can't comprehend, or maybe don't care, that there are people who don't need to be surrounded by other people all the time, and who work better, and are happier if they are alone. This is a variation on the classic mismatch between introverts and extroverts, social expectations, and behaviors. It's just concentrated in the RTO vs remote debate. > Let people who want to work in an office work in an office, and let people who want to work from home work from home. This, 100%, if you can control for bias. The issue with the true optionality is that remote workers may get passed up for promotion or other opportunities because they're less physically present—even if they're the best fit for the opportunity. That's what makes it difficult to straddle both worlds. I guess one solution would be to have managers, paradoxically, never in the office more than 1-2 days a week to force more explicit interaction via remote conferencing, but that's a weird forcing function.
- s1gsegv 2y ago
  Maybe the answer to the bias is to have entire teams as either fully in office or fully remote. At a certain level of management abstraction the physical presence wouldn’t be much of a bias anymore, I almost never see my VPs anyway. And for the people in-office trying to communicate with another team, this is not much different than the problem you have anyway with multiple offices even if everyone was in office. Then you can internally move to the team aligned with your working style. People do this now by switching to a company most aligned with their working style, but obviously this has major drawbacks and we probably don’t need to be that coarse.
- ImPostingOnHN 2y ago
  > This is a variation on the classic mismatch between introverts and extroverts The issue isn't the "mismatch", because everyone is different. The issue arises when people who match 1 pattern force others who don't to follow the pattern anyways, particularly when the reasoning is selfish (I like it [because of X], so we're doing it, even if you don't like it). > The issue with the true optionality is that remote workers may get passed up for promotion or other opportunities because they're less physically present. A few points to touch upon here: - While that is indeed sometimes true, it's a problem of that specific company's culture, not of remote work (my current company promotes equally, for example). - It is indeed extra work to be "noticed" when you're remote, as it requires more than just sitting there and having a face that people can see. For me, this has meant developing myself in terms of delivering results and letting folks know how they're good for the company. IMHO these are pretty universally useful skills in business. - Not everyone is forever looking for another promotion, so that's another argument for letting them choose. > I guess one solution would be to have managers, paradoxically, never in the office more than 1-2 days a week to force more explicit interaction via remote conferencing, but that's a weird forcing function We hold our meetings with a video option, even when a couple people are in the office, and it doesn't feel weird. We are also effective at "huddling" around a screen shared digitally, to quickly swarm a problem. I have alternatively heard of companies incentivizing optionally hybrid workers to come in 2-3 specific days per week by providing perks like free meals on those days.
- listenallyall 2y ago
silverquiet 2y ago
I'm introverted to the point that it weirds other people out, and permanent work from home drives me insane. When I do need to talk to someone, I really prefer to see if they're available at their desk and if so, talk with them in person where the "bandwidth" is highest. I do agree that for heads-down type work, it is nice to be able to shut out everything and concentrate.

listenallyall 2y ago

> local meetups Pandemic + work-from-home has killed many, many local meetups. It's great that some are still running where you live, but what was a great resource to meet colleagues, learn something useful, hear about open opportunities no longer exists in many places.