4 ms·

Did they have to reduce cost or is there any other reason to not stick 20TB of SSDs in a box and call it a day? 4TB SSDs only cost ~$300, even HP or Dell SFF dr

by aeyes 2y ago

Did they have to reduce cost or is there any other reason to not stick 20TB of SSDs in a box and call it a day? 4TB SSDs only cost ~$300, even HP or Dell SFF drives aren't much more expensive. I guess they were interested in doing the testing and optimization for fun. From a product standpoint I probably would have invested my limited time in other projects.

broodbucket 2y ago
Lichess is a non-profit with a lot of volunteers, they probably don't have the same time vs hardware cost balance as most for-profit companies do
- traceroute66 2y ago
  It is important not to automatically make assumption that all non-profits are impoverished and run by volunteers. One of the most famous examples is Wikipedia. Technically yes, they are a non-profit. Impoverished ? Certainly not ! Look at the financials, as others have already pointed out. Especially if you are in the habit of donating to non-profits, the financials can make for interesting reading.
  - r0ks0n 2y ago
    [flagged]
  - pfg_ 2y ago
    If you look at lichess financials they currently have two full time employees - in this case it's not a bad assumption. Wikipedia has significantly more users and does fundraisers
KolmogorovComp 2y ago
Why scale up when you can optimise? I'm probably going to be downvoted for this, but imo this is really the mindset that leads to bloated software.
- tra3 2y ago
  Agreed. This is the implicit assertion that developer time is more expensive than hardware costs. Seems true in the short term, until the whole system crumbles.
BSDobelix 2y ago
>testing and optimization for fun In no other industry a engineer would think like that...except in IT. We definitely have too powerful and cheap Hardware, combined with lazy Wetware who just wants to "call it a day"....be proud of your work....or so they say.
- chronogram 2y ago
  Not calling it a day anywhere is why Lichess is such a good website.
- aeyes 2y ago
  Most things in life are a compromise and it's easy to get tempted to find the perfect solution instead of spending your time on actually moving forward. In all industries there is always something you can do better if only you spend more time. But at most places time is worth money and I'd say $3000 for a few SSDs is little enough to not make this worth my time.
  - BSDobelix 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - bubblyworld 2y ago
      Please keep it civil. There's no need to attack the parent, take that kind of crap elsewhere.
- WJW 2y ago
  You think engineers in other industries won't sometimes choose the more exciting option when a boring but well-understood one would do the trick? That's definitely not true in (at least) mechanical and electrical engineering from what I've seen. From people spending millions trying to have the entire factory operated by robots so they could save 100k on humans to engineers specifying friction stir welders for the most basic of welding jobs, overengineering of parts that would make the people at Juicero blush, etc etc etc. I have no idea why software people think their industry is the only one where people cut corners. Some form of meta-imposter syndrome perhaps.
bastawhiz 2y ago
They managed to reduce max response times by an order of magnitude. If this project took a week (even two) and some users went from 15s response times to 1.5s response times, only projects where the user experience is even worse or where you work for a for-profit organization where there's money to be made elsewhere (and you admit you don't really care about customer pain) would be a better justification of time.
ViktorRay 2y ago
Lichess is a non-profit. It is run entirely on donations and volunteering. It has only 1 employee, the dude who founded the non-profit, and it seems he takes far less money than he could make from any other job based on how talented he is. Also the organization is based in France. I don’t what impact that has on costs but it’s worth mentioning.
- jayemar 2y ago
  I had no idea that was the case, that's incredibly impressive!
- lukhas 2y ago
  We're up to 2 employees now! The founder and a mobile dev. The impact on costs is "not small", because as a rough estimate, the charity pays overall about twice what the dev gets in take-home money, because French employer taxes are high (keyword for the Frenchies reading us: URSSAF). Source: am President of the Lichess charity and have the honour and pleasure of dealing with most of the French administrative paperwork.
diggan 2y ago
> From a product standpoint Makes sense from that perspective, but Lichess is not run as a for-profit company with a product, it's run as a non-profit organization (which it is), so a perspective shift is needed to understand their decisions :)
- silvestrov 2y ago
  Take a look at their financials and $1500 for SSDs would not be out of place. They have yearly expenses for more than $500.000 https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Si3PMUJGR9KrpE5lngSkHLJKJkb0ZuI4/preview https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Si3PMUJGR9KrpE5lngSk... Seems really weird to be using harddrives when they already have expenses like that.
  - Timshel 2y ago
    Looks like rented stuff to me you can't just add drives ... And while 500k is a lot maybe they can do so much with it because they do not just throw $1500 in drives at every problem.
  - Out_of_Characte 2y ago
    The reason is buried in another article "WDL tables (.rtbw) store the outcome of positions, e.g. if a position is winning. An engine will use this very frequently to decide which endgames to aim for. WDL tables should be stored on the fastest disk (preferably SSD) you have." "DTZ tables (.rtbz) tell the engine how to finish the endgame once it is on the board. They are optional, but required to reliably convert complicated endings." Seems reasonable to put the WDL table on the SSD for better engine performance. I do understand not choosing SSD's. The number of lookups for positions always remains the same per user per game. Yet the tablebase is growing more than exponentially. https://lichess.org/@/lichess/blog/7-piece-syzygy-tablebases-are-complete/W3WeMyQA https://lichess.org/@/lichess/blog/7-piece-syzygy-tablebases...
  - lukhas 2y ago
    As mentionned elsewhere, we're renting most of our infra from OVH, and paying, monthly, for 40TB of SSDs or NVMes would simply explode our yearly budget. Source: am président of the lichess charity (and also one of the sysadmins)

by aeyes 2y ago

broodbucket 2y ago

Lichess is a non-profit with a lot of volunteers, they probably don't have the same time vs hardware cost balance as most for-profit companies do

traceroute66 2y ago
It is important not to automatically make assumption that all non-profits are impoverished and run by volunteers. One of the most famous examples is Wikipedia. Technically yes, they are a non-profit. Impoverished ? Certainly not ! Look at the financials, as others have already pointed out. Especially if you are in the habit of donating to non-profits, the financials can make for interesting reading.
- r0ks0n 2y ago
  [flagged]
- pfg_ 2y ago
  If you look at lichess financials they currently have two full time employees - in this case it's not a bad assumption. Wikipedia has significantly more users and does fundraisers

KolmogorovComp 2y ago

Why scale up when you can optimise? I'm probably going to be downvoted for this, but imo this is really the mindset that leads to bloated software.

tra3 2y ago
Agreed. This is the implicit assertion that developer time is more expensive than hardware costs. Seems true in the short term, until the whole system crumbles.

BSDobelix 2y ago

>testing and optimization for fun In no other industry a engineer would think like that...except in IT. We definitely have too powerful and cheap Hardware, combined with lazy Wetware who just wants to "call it a day"....be proud of your work....or so they say.

chronogram 2y ago
Not calling it a day anywhere is why Lichess is such a good website.
aeyes 2y ago
Most things in life are a compromise and it's easy to get tempted to find the perfect solution instead of spending your time on actually moving forward. In all industries there is always something you can do better if only you spend more time. But at most places time is worth money and I'd say $3000 for a few SSDs is little enough to not make this worth my time.
- BSDobelix 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - bubblyworld 2y ago
    Please keep it civil. There's no need to attack the parent, take that kind of crap elsewhere.
WJW 2y ago
You think engineers in other industries won't sometimes choose the more exciting option when a boring but well-understood one would do the trick? That's definitely not true in (at least) mechanical and electrical engineering from what I've seen. From people spending millions trying to have the entire factory operated by robots so they could save 100k on humans to engineers specifying friction stir welders for the most basic of welding jobs, overengineering of parts that would make the people at Juicero blush, etc etc etc. I have no idea why software people think their industry is the only one where people cut corners. Some form of meta-imposter syndrome perhaps.

bastawhiz 2y ago

They managed to reduce max response times by an order of magnitude. If this project took a week (even two) and some users went from 15s response times to 1.5s response times, only projects where the user experience is even worse or where you work for a for-profit organization where there's money to be made elsewhere (and you admit you don't really care about customer pain) would be a better justification of time.

ViktorRay 2y ago

Lichess is a non-profit. It is run entirely on donations and volunteering. It has only 1 employee, the dude who founded the non-profit, and it seems he takes far less money than he could make from any other job based on how talented he is. Also the organization is based in France. I don’t what impact that has on costs but it’s worth mentioning.

jayemar 2y ago
I had no idea that was the case, that's incredibly impressive!
lukhas 2y ago
We're up to 2 employees now! The founder and a mobile dev. The impact on costs is "not small", because as a rough estimate, the charity pays overall about twice what the dev gets in take-home money, because French employer taxes are high (keyword for the Frenchies reading us: URSSAF). Source: am President of the Lichess charity and have the honour and pleasure of dealing with most of the French administrative paperwork.

diggan 2y ago

> From a product standpoint Makes sense from that perspective, but Lichess is not run as a for-profit company with a product, it's run as a non-profit organization (which it is), so a perspective shift is needed to understand their decisions :)

silvestrov 2y ago
Take a look at their financials and $1500 for SSDs would not be out of place. They have yearly expenses for more than $500.000 https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Si3PMUJGR9KrpE5lngSkHLJKJkb0ZuI4/preview https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Si3PMUJGR9KrpE5lngSk... Seems really weird to be using harddrives when they already have expenses like that.
- Timshel 2y ago
  Looks like rented stuff to me you can't just add drives ... And while 500k is a lot maybe they can do so much with it because they do not just throw $1500 in drives at every problem.
- Out_of_Characte 2y ago
  The reason is buried in another article "WDL tables (.rtbw) store the outcome of positions, e.g. if a position is winning. An engine will use this very frequently to decide which endgames to aim for. WDL tables should be stored on the fastest disk (preferably SSD) you have." "DTZ tables (.rtbz) tell the engine how to finish the endgame once it is on the board. They are optional, but required to reliably convert complicated endings." Seems reasonable to put the WDL table on the SSD for better engine performance. I do understand not choosing SSD's. The number of lookups for positions always remains the same per user per game. Yet the tablebase is growing more than exponentially. https://lichess.org/@/lichess/blog/7-piece-syzygy-tablebases-are-complete/W3WeMyQA https://lichess.org/@/lichess/blog/7-piece-syzygy-tablebases...
- lukhas 2y ago
  As mentionned elsewhere, we're renting most of our infra from OVH, and paying, monthly, for 40TB of SSDs or NVMes would simply explode our yearly budget. Source: am président of the lichess charity (and also one of the sysadmins)