3 ms·

Could the gallium anomaly be explained by something far more prosaic? For example, in water, there are all kinds of species of different anions and cations pres

Could the gallium anomaly be explained by something far more prosaic? For example, in water, there are all kinds of species of different anions and cations present, existing in equilibrium with each other. Water forms complex semi-crystalline structures by virtue of hydrogen bonds. Although they are not true crystals, the supramolecular structures of individual water molecules and the valence species create a sophisticated structure, even in a seemingly homogenous substance. Now, consider if something similar happens with gallium. What if the electron configuration of gallium's orbitals means that gallium, in its liquid form, also has various anions and cations? Moreover, what if gallium can form analogs to hydrogen bonds, leading to semi-crystalline or structured forms? This structured form could provide some shielding to the gallium atoms, making them less likely to be converted via neutrinos to germanium. Instead of impacting a nucleus at the expected rate, the overlapping orbital bonds and electron resonance might offer a form of shielding. This shielding could make the gallium atoms more stable and less reactive, thereby reducing their conversion to germanium. While this idea applies a chemical concept to nuclear chemistry or physics, and may not align perfectly with the traditional views of high-energy particle physicists and astronomers, it offers a potentially more prosaic explanation for the gallium anomaly. This perspective might not have been top of mind for those focused on high-energy interactions and could be worth considering further.

baxtr 2y ago
Unfortunately many physicists believe chemistry is just applied physics. In reality most physicists have no clue of chemistry beyond the H2 molecule. Based on that, your “less prosaic” could be a good candidate for an explanation.
aw1621107 2y ago
> This structured form could provide some shielding to the gallium atoms, making them less likely to be converted via neutrinos to germanium. Instead of impacting a nucleus at the expected rate, the overlapping orbital bonds and electron resonance might offer a form of shielding. This shielding could make the gallium atoms more stable and less reactive, thereby reducing their conversion to germanium. Might this be covered by this bit from the article? > Another proposed explanation was that physicists had miscalculated the probability of neutrinos from the source interacting with the gallium. But in September 2023, Haxton and his colleagues also ruled out this possibility. “You can’t get rid of the anomaly,” he said. Maybe they don't consider the scenario you outlined in their calculations, but I lack the training to understand the paper [0]. In addition, speaking more generally I'd be curious how your proposed mechanism would work physically. Given the size of the nucleus compared to that of the electron cloud, the fact that (known) neutrinos only interact via the weak interaction and gravity, and the range of the weak interaction, a big question to me is how big your proposed effect could have in this case, if any. [0]: https://arxiv.org/abs/2303.13623 https://arxiv.org/abs/2303.13623
alleztarmac 2y ago
If I understand idea, this sounds like what physicists might call a 'collective phenomena' effect introducing some type of screening. It's possible -- if true it could independently be tested. I know there are models for this type of stuff in denser matter (and in more extreme conditions), but not sure whats known in situations like the experiment. I assume there is a reason that isnt mentioned, but would love to know from an expert why. Collective phenomena do show up in high energy/particle physics, albeit rarely, ex: when you collide large enough nuclei together at high enough speeds, you create a highly energy-dense nuclear plasma which effective 'screens' jets of particles that would travel through the center of the collision. If you go to smaller nuclei or lower energy, you can start to see these jets of particles pass through the collision area.
gus_massa 2y ago
Neutrinos can pass through the whole Earth, and almost none of them is stoped. A trick to get a neutrino ray and block all other particles is to not build a tunel and let a few miles of soil absorb all other particles. So a few electrons more or less concentrated arround a gallium atom have no effect. Considering the electronic distribution is an interesting idea, but not for the shelling effect. This is not my area so I have to guess more than what I'm confortable. Anyway, the difference between the electons in gallium and germanium is an aditional electron in a p orbital. An electron in a p orbital has some probability of beein nearby the nuclei. The decay from germanium to galium is an electron capture Ge + e -> Ga + ν , so the "postion" of the electon is important, but I'm not sure how important. But in this experiment they are measuring the inverse reaction Ga + ν -> Ge + e and comparing the rates of both reactions. So ... perhaps it's possible that the change of the electon density distribution causes a change in these decay/undecay. I never heard something similar, and I expect the effect is neligible, but this is not my area so I can't rule it out.
- keepamovin 2y ago
  Yes I understand the traditional objections to this idea. I don’t think you’ve quite grasped what I propose tho. Consider this: The reaction v_e + (71)Ga → (71)Ge + e− involves the release of an electron. The local electronic environment, including electron orbitals or metallic bonds in liquid gallium, can influence this electron's energy levels and spatial distribution. These changes can affect the reaction rate and shift the equilibrium position of the reaction, potentially making the forward reaction less favored and accounting for the 20% discrepancy. So, while neutrinos primarily interact via the weak nuclear force, the electron release means the local electronic environment can subtly impact the overall reaction dynamics.
  - gus_massa 2y ago
    Then we agree. I though you were thinking about shelling like a plumber wall or like the core electrons in an atom. In the released electron has low energy, perhaps some change of the electriñonic configuration may cause a problem(???). (Triple question mark because I think it's possible but I never heard something similar.) Also, in solid germanium the electronic didtribution is affected by the bands, that is another can of worms. In liquid gallium I'm not sure what happens. (And an isolated germanium atom disolved in liquid gallium may have also an unusual electronic distribution.)

baxtr 2y ago

Unfortunately many physicists believe chemistry is just applied physics. In reality most physicists have no clue of chemistry beyond the H2 molecule. Based on that, your “less prosaic” could be a good candidate for an explanation.

aw1621107 2y ago

> This structured form could provide some shielding to the gallium atoms, making them less likely to be converted via neutrinos to germanium. Instead of impacting a nucleus at the expected rate, the overlapping orbital bonds and electron resonance might offer a form of shielding. This shielding could make the gallium atoms more stable and less reactive, thereby reducing their conversion to germanium. Might this be covered by this bit from the article? > Another proposed explanation was that physicists had miscalculated the probability of neutrinos from the source interacting with the gallium. But in September 2023, Haxton and his colleagues also ruled out this possibility. “You can’t get rid of the anomaly,” he said. Maybe they don't consider the scenario you outlined in their calculations, but I lack the training to understand the paper [0]. In addition, speaking more generally I'd be curious how your proposed mechanism would work physically. Given the size of the nucleus compared to that of the electron cloud, the fact that (known) neutrinos only interact via the weak interaction and gravity, and the range of the weak interaction, a big question to me is how big your proposed effect could have in this case, if any. [0]: https://arxiv.org/abs/2303.13623 https://arxiv.org/abs/2303.13623

alleztarmac 2y ago

If I understand idea, this sounds like what physicists might call a 'collective phenomena' effect introducing some type of screening. It's possible -- if true it could independently be tested. I know there are models for this type of stuff in denser matter (and in more extreme conditions), but not sure whats known in situations like the experiment. I assume there is a reason that isnt mentioned, but would love to know from an expert why. Collective phenomena do show up in high energy/particle physics, albeit rarely, ex: when you collide large enough nuclei together at high enough speeds, you create a highly energy-dense nuclear plasma which effective 'screens' jets of particles that would travel through the center of the collision. If you go to smaller nuclei or lower energy, you can start to see these jets of particles pass through the collision area.

gus_massa 2y ago

Neutrinos can pass through the whole Earth, and almost none of them is stoped. A trick to get a neutrino ray and block all other particles is to not build a tunel and let a few miles of soil absorb all other particles. So a few electrons more or less concentrated arround a gallium atom have no effect. Considering the electronic distribution is an interesting idea, but not for the shelling effect. This is not my area so I have to guess more than what I'm confortable. Anyway, the difference between the electons in gallium and germanium is an aditional electron in a p orbital. An electron in a p orbital has some probability of beein nearby the nuclei. The decay from germanium to galium is an electron capture Ge + e -> Ga + ν , so the "postion" of the electon is important, but I'm not sure how important. But in this experiment they are measuring the inverse reaction Ga + ν -> Ge + e and comparing the rates of both reactions. So ... perhaps it's possible that the change of the electon density distribution causes a change in these decay/undecay. I never heard something similar, and I expect the effect is neligible, but this is not my area so I can't rule it out.

keepamovin 2y ago
Yes I understand the traditional objections to this idea. I don’t think you’ve quite grasped what I propose tho. Consider this: The reaction v_e + (71)Ga → (71)Ge + e− involves the release of an electron. The local electronic environment, including electron orbitals or metallic bonds in liquid gallium, can influence this electron's energy levels and spatial distribution. These changes can affect the reaction rate and shift the equilibrium position of the reaction, potentially making the forward reaction less favored and accounting for the 20% discrepancy. So, while neutrinos primarily interact via the weak nuclear force, the electron release means the local electronic environment can subtly impact the overall reaction dynamics.
- gus_massa 2y ago
  Then we agree. I though you were thinking about shelling like a plumber wall or like the core electrons in an atom. In the released electron has low energy, perhaps some change of the electriñonic configuration may cause a problem(???). (Triple question mark because I think it's possible but I never heard something similar.) Also, in solid germanium the electronic didtribution is affected by the bands, that is another can of worms. In liquid gallium I'm not sure what happens. (And an isolated germanium atom disolved in liquid gallium may have also an unusual electronic distribution.)