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Not taking sides here, but does anyone actually think that people will use strictly opt-in features at all? They went to the trouble to develop it so if you wer

Not taking sides here, but does anyone actually think that people will use strictly opt-in features at all? They went to the trouble to develop it so if you were them, why should it be so hidden as to have barely any users? I feel the same way about debugging telemetry... it's so valuable for developers and yet people want to see you hang if it's not (at best) a manual opt-in, but they don't care that it won't be used by anyone in that case.

pacifika 2y ago
Why should users opt in to a feature if they perceive it has no value to them? So what developers should be asking is how they can make it directly valuable to the user to enable the feature. User led not business led. Reliability ratings, notifying of fixed reported crashes, improvements in performance telemetry etc
- ranger_danger 2y ago
  > Why should users opt in to a feature if they perceive it has no value to them There will be users that perceive any feature of the application to have no value. I think developers should not only consider the opinions and wishes of the user but also what's best for the application itself.
matheusmoreira 2y ago
Whether anyone will use it or not doesn't matter. They do things like this, they simply show everyone they can't be trusted.
entuno 2y ago
There are plenty of opt-in features that people do use. Hell, the entire extension ecosystem is based around people choosing to opt in to various extra features. So if this is something that is so undesirable that no one would opt it to it, then maybe it's not a feature that should be included the the browser at all - especially when Mozilla's slogan is "Internet for people, not profit".
- chefandy 2y ago
  I wonder if they snagged themselves one of those executives that justifies ignoring privacy by insisting people really do want targeted ads more than privacy... so you really really don't even need to inform them about it or give them a choice.
  - account42 2y ago
    Are those the same kind of executives that think they deserv literally millions each year while the product declines in relevance?
    - chefandy 2y ago
      That might be all kinds of C-level executives?
chefandy 2y ago
I enable debugging telemetry when I encounter bugs, but I'm not going to constantly send some company a shitload of my usage metadata just in case it's useful at some point.
KingOfCoders 2y ago
"Not taking sides here" but taking sides here.
alserio 2y ago
you can just ask then
Hamuko 2y ago
Firefox is an opt-in feature on all of my devices.
fallingsquirrel 2y ago
Counterpoint: Syncthing's telemetry is strictly opt-in, and > 100,000 people have opted in. It's possible to collect useful data in a way that also respects your users. Many projects do so. Firefox just chooses not to. https://data.syncthing.net/ https://data.syncthing.net/
- ranger_danger 2y ago
  Interesting... I wonder how many other projects have had similar success, this is the first time I've heard about an opt-in number that large. I'd be interested to know what their UX for it is and if they did any research on it.
  - account42 2y ago
    Another example is Debian popcon [0] with over 234k opt-in users. [0] https://popcon.debian.org/ https://popcon.debian.org/

pacifika 2y ago

Why should users opt in to a feature if they perceive it has no value to them? So what developers should be asking is how they can make it directly valuable to the user to enable the feature. User led not business led. Reliability ratings, notifying of fixed reported crashes, improvements in performance telemetry etc

ranger_danger 2y ago
> Why should users opt in to a feature if they perceive it has no value to them There will be users that perceive any feature of the application to have no value. I think developers should not only consider the opinions and wishes of the user but also what's best for the application itself.

matheusmoreira 2y ago

Whether anyone will use it or not doesn't matter. They do things like this, they simply show everyone they can't be trusted.

entuno 2y ago

There are plenty of opt-in features that people do use. Hell, the entire extension ecosystem is based around people choosing to opt in to various extra features. So if this is something that is so undesirable that no one would opt it to it, then maybe it's not a feature that should be included the the browser at all - especially when Mozilla's slogan is "Internet for people, not profit".

chefandy 2y ago
I wonder if they snagged themselves one of those executives that justifies ignoring privacy by insisting people really do want targeted ads more than privacy... so you really really don't even need to inform them about it or give them a choice.
- account42 2y ago
  Are those the same kind of executives that think they deserv literally millions each year while the product declines in relevance?
  - chefandy 2y ago
    That might be all kinds of C-level executives?

chefandy 2y ago

I enable debugging telemetry when I encounter bugs, but I'm not going to constantly send some company a shitload of my usage metadata just in case it's useful at some point.

KingOfCoders 2y ago

"Not taking sides here" but taking sides here.

alserio 2y ago

you can just ask then

Hamuko 2y ago

Firefox is an opt-in feature on all of my devices.

fallingsquirrel 2y ago

Counterpoint: Syncthing's telemetry is strictly opt-in, and > 100,000 people have opted in. It's possible to collect useful data in a way that also respects your users. Many projects do so. Firefox just chooses not to. https://data.syncthing.net/ https://data.syncthing.net/

ranger_danger 2y ago
Interesting... I wonder how many other projects have had similar success, this is the first time I've heard about an opt-in number that large. I'd be interested to know what their UX for it is and if they did any research on it.
- account42 2y ago
  Another example is Debian popcon [0] with over 234k opt-in users. [0] https://popcon.debian.org/ https://popcon.debian.org/