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What's with the vilification of kubernetes? 99% of this document (https://tau.how/99-Misc/kubernetes/01-k8s-cons/ https://tau.how/99-Misc/kubernetes/01-k8s-cons

What's with the vilification of kubernetes? 99% of this document (https://tau.how/99-Misc/kubernetes/01-k8s-cons/ https://tau.how/99-Misc/kubernetes/01-k8s-cons/) boils down to "You have to understand what a pod, deployment, container, etc is" once you remove every line that discusses the cons of managing a cluster yourself, because nobody actually does that except extremely large orgs. All of these problems go away when you utilize a managed offering like DOKS, EKS, AKS or GKE.

mynameisvlad 2y ago
If your goal is to self-host your own PaaS, why would you use a managed k8s offering?
- joshmanders 2y ago
  Why wouldn't you? If you decide to not use a PaaS and self host your own servers would you reach for a VPS or would you manage your own rack in a colocated data center?
  - jpgvm 2y ago
    Precisely, it's just about which abstraction and responsibility level you want to engage with. Managed k8s (from good vendors) means the scheduler is as far as you need to go which is enough to do a great many "self hosted" things.
- abound 2y ago
  "Self-hosting" doesn't necessarily mean you own the hardware. Many people self-host on cloud providers at different levels (Fly, Digital Ocean/Hetzner, GCP/Azure/AWS), and most of those have some managed K8s offering.
  - anonzzzies 2y ago
    Yeah and, as I see with my clients, you are always overpaying for that service. We run a one binary CL (save and die) cluster for $50/mo without containers that makes us millions $ profit a month. Even if it would cost $1000 (it would be far more); a) I rather give that to someone on the street b) it would be far far more busy work for no benefit. Anyone can do what they want; I like profit and I simply don’t like giving these companies money. But each their own. Tau seems the same philosophy as us, so I will add them to our sponsor list.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
zerkten 2y ago
I found it interesting that this was the focus when users of Vercel etc. have probably decided against k8s already. For me, a k8s comparison would make sense if this was a platform for running containers/VMs in a more traditional server model.
thinkxl 2y ago
> What's with the vilification of kubernetes? because a well-configured k8s cluster nullifies the need for this project. also hi!
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- tln 2y ago
  There's a fair amount of friction to going from 0 to a well-configured k8s cluster with gitops and a local dev story....
  - jpgvm 2y ago
    Gitops and a local dev story are more about your application than your deployment environment. Especially because along the way you need to consider building, testing, CI, etc. It's really hard to fault k8s these days, all the original problems are solved and all that remains is necessary complexity that can't be abstracted without lowering power. That doesn't mean you can't abstract over it, you can and should but you should do so in the scope of your team or organisation where you already know which pieces of power you need/want or otherwise know the way you which you want to leak those capabilities.
llama052 2y ago
100% this.. There's also exciting projects like Talos, Rancher, and the like for self-hosting Kubernetes that makes it entirely more manageable. So much saturation in this space of people trying to create one off solutions, which on some level I admire. However the further off the main path you go the more you lock yourself into problems you can't troubleshoot or edge cases that aren't supported. Abstraction these days is alluring, and it's cool! However you want something well known, well supported, (from multiple companies ideally) and documented. The hate for understanding kubernetes is just hate for having to understand layers of orchestration, or worse the layers behind the application. If it's too complicated then you might not need it. Any platform you use will have those same layers, it just depends on how much is assumed or exposed to you. If you don't want to see any dials or options then use a managed solution, not a roll your own platform tool. That's of course assuming a few virtual machines managed by hand doesn't satisfy your needs, but if that's the case you don't need a platform solution (and hopefully it's not production).
p-o 2y ago
I like your take on this. I think K8s offers a _lot_ and it has a bad reputation because of its early days. Kubernetes has room to improve, like everything else, but the API now are becoming a lot easier to work with and the Custom Resources allows folks to extend Kubernetes. I still think that projects like this one come from necessity. Folks want to have an alternative for vendor lock-in. I'm building something like that too (https://github.com/pier-oliviert/sequencer https://github.com/pier-oliviert/sequencer) for Kubernetes, and it's also out of necessity. Vercel, Heroku and others have a lot of helpful tools that are empower developers, and I think people want to have those without being locked-in. It goes without saying that I'm totally bias :)
aduwah 2y ago
I disagree hard with this. I love kubernetes to bits, but managing complex networking issues, having proper security, or just simply rightsizing the nodes is definitely not going away with having a managed control plane.
- akvadrako 2y ago
  Google's autopilot takes care of that stuff for average use cases. You just point a few yaml files at it any your app is running. It's not like netlify does better in terms of rightizing nodes.
philippemnoel 2y ago
"What's with the vilification of kubernetes?" I ask myself that question every day
phantomathkg 2y ago
Nothing wrong with vilification of a mature product. Everyone trying to sell you an alternative will try to differentiate itself from a mature competitor in the market very hard.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

mynameisvlad 2y ago

If your goal is to self-host your own PaaS, why would you use a managed k8s offering?

joshmanders 2y ago
Why wouldn't you? If you decide to not use a PaaS and self host your own servers would you reach for a VPS or would you manage your own rack in a colocated data center?
- jpgvm 2y ago
  Precisely, it's just about which abstraction and responsibility level you want to engage with. Managed k8s (from good vendors) means the scheduler is as far as you need to go which is enough to do a great many "self hosted" things.
abound 2y ago
"Self-hosting" doesn't necessarily mean you own the hardware. Many people self-host on cloud providers at different levels (Fly, Digital Ocean/Hetzner, GCP/Azure/AWS), and most of those have some managed K8s offering.
- anonzzzies 2y ago
  Yeah and, as I see with my clients, you are always overpaying for that service. We run a one binary CL (save and die) cluster for $50/mo without containers that makes us millions $ profit a month. Even if it would cost $1000 (it would be far more); a) I rather give that to someone on the street b) it would be far far more busy work for no benefit. Anyone can do what they want; I like profit and I simply don’t like giving these companies money. But each their own. Tau seems the same philosophy as us, so I will add them to our sponsor list.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

zerkten 2y ago

I found it interesting that this was the focus when users of Vercel etc. have probably decided against k8s already. For me, a k8s comparison would make sense if this was a platform for running containers/VMs in a more traditional server model.

thinkxl 2y ago

> What's with the vilification of kubernetes? because a well-configured k8s cluster nullifies the need for this project. also hi!

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
tln 2y ago
There's a fair amount of friction to going from 0 to a well-configured k8s cluster with gitops and a local dev story....
- jpgvm 2y ago
  Gitops and a local dev story are more about your application than your deployment environment. Especially because along the way you need to consider building, testing, CI, etc. It's really hard to fault k8s these days, all the original problems are solved and all that remains is necessary complexity that can't be abstracted without lowering power. That doesn't mean you can't abstract over it, you can and should but you should do so in the scope of your team or organisation where you already know which pieces of power you need/want or otherwise know the way you which you want to leak those capabilities.

llama052 2y ago

100% this.. There's also exciting projects like Talos, Rancher, and the like for self-hosting Kubernetes that makes it entirely more manageable. So much saturation in this space of people trying to create one off solutions, which on some level I admire. However the further off the main path you go the more you lock yourself into problems you can't troubleshoot or edge cases that aren't supported. Abstraction these days is alluring, and it's cool! However you want something well known, well supported, (from multiple companies ideally) and documented. The hate for understanding kubernetes is just hate for having to understand layers of orchestration, or worse the layers behind the application. If it's too complicated then you might not need it. Any platform you use will have those same layers, it just depends on how much is assumed or exposed to you. If you don't want to see any dials or options then use a managed solution, not a roll your own platform tool. That's of course assuming a few virtual machines managed by hand doesn't satisfy your needs, but if that's the case you don't need a platform solution (and hopefully it's not production).

p-o 2y ago

I like your take on this. I think K8s offers a _lot_ and it has a bad reputation because of its early days. Kubernetes has room to improve, like everything else, but the API now are becoming a lot easier to work with and the Custom Resources allows folks to extend Kubernetes. I still think that projects like this one come from necessity. Folks want to have an alternative for vendor lock-in. I'm building something like that too (https://github.com/pier-oliviert/sequencer https://github.com/pier-oliviert/sequencer) for Kubernetes, and it's also out of necessity. Vercel, Heroku and others have a lot of helpful tools that are empower developers, and I think people want to have those without being locked-in. It goes without saying that I'm totally bias :)

aduwah 2y ago

I disagree hard with this. I love kubernetes to bits, but managing complex networking issues, having proper security, or just simply rightsizing the nodes is definitely not going away with having a managed control plane.

akvadrako 2y ago
Google's autopilot takes care of that stuff for average use cases. You just point a few yaml files at it any your app is running. It's not like netlify does better in terms of rightizing nodes.

philippemnoel 2y ago

"What's with the vilification of kubernetes?" I ask myself that question every day

phantomathkg 2y ago

Nothing wrong with vilification of a mature product. Everyone trying to sell you an alternative will try to differentiate itself from a mature competitor in the market very hard.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]