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If ever a comment deserved down voting into oblivion, this would be it. Your advice is for everyone that is providing and using shared web hosting, to stop it?

tptacek 14y ago
If you're using it for a real application, I'd move. Sorry if that makes you feel bad.
- mike-cardwell 14y ago
  I'm not using shared hosting, no. Although I did work for a company that provided it a few years back. I'm just trying to figure out if you're actually being serious with your claim that everyone with a database backed website should be running it from isolated servers? If you actually understand the implications of this or if you're just making nonsensical off the cuff remarks? I wonder how many tens or hundreds of millions of servers that would add to the Internet.
  - tptacek 14y ago
    Of course I'm being serious. Don't run serious applications from the shared MySQL databases at shared hosting providers. You seem shocked that I'm saying this, but we work with a lot of very young startups and I have never met one running their app off a Dreamhost-style shared server. Tens or hundreds of millions of database servers? That's hyperbolic. Do you really think that we've come close to eliminating all the vulnerabilities inside a MySQL session, post-authentication? Because what you're arguing is effectively that application owners should trust that MySQL is resilient against attackers who can get an authenticated handle to their own database and run nearly arbitrary SQL statements against it. You think all the code in the MySQL query parser, the planner, and the various storage backends have been fully audited? This is a project that didn't even get authentication right.
peterwwillis 14y ago
From a security perspective it's good advice. I've never seen a shared web hosting provider whose boxes couldn't be owned by an account that could drop code and execute. Local priv escalation holes seem to be a dime a dozen and you don't know if they've even attempted to lock down their users' data. Now, do you really care if some community bulletin board's database gets owned? Probably not. But I wouldn't run a shopping cart on a shared hoster.
- mike-cardwell 14y ago
  "Now, do you really care if some community bulletin board's database gets owned? Probably not. But I wouldn't run a shopping cart on a shared hoster." I agree. tptacek is the one who disagrees with you. He thinks there is "never" a good reason to use shared hosting.
- tptacek 14y ago
  If you don't really care about security --- and I agree there are times when you shouldn't --- then by all means use the cheapest possible hosting option available to you. But if you care even a little about security, avoid shared hosting. I really don't understand Mike Cardwell's objection; I don't think what I'm saying is controversial at all. I actually thought I was making a relatively banal point.
  - mike-cardwell 14y ago
    I'll just leave the following here. Maybe you can figure out from it what my point was: You: Attackers should never, ever be able to connect directly to your MySQL database directly Me: "Never" ... You are aware of the existence and mass use of shared web hosting systems right?
    - tptacek 14y ago
      I think you're having trouble with the intended target of the word "you" in my comment. I'm not writing to people hosting Minecraft forums on Dreamhost.

tptacek 14y ago

If you're using it for a real application, I'd move. Sorry if that makes you feel bad.

mike-cardwell 14y ago
I'm not using shared hosting, no. Although I did work for a company that provided it a few years back. I'm just trying to figure out if you're actually being serious with your claim that everyone with a database backed website should be running it from isolated servers? If you actually understand the implications of this or if you're just making nonsensical off the cuff remarks? I wonder how many tens or hundreds of millions of servers that would add to the Internet.
- tptacek 14y ago
  Of course I'm being serious. Don't run serious applications from the shared MySQL databases at shared hosting providers. You seem shocked that I'm saying this, but we work with a lot of very young startups and I have never met one running their app off a Dreamhost-style shared server. Tens or hundreds of millions of database servers? That's hyperbolic. Do you really think that we've come close to eliminating all the vulnerabilities inside a MySQL session, post-authentication? Because what you're arguing is effectively that application owners should trust that MySQL is resilient against attackers who can get an authenticated handle to their own database and run nearly arbitrary SQL statements against it. You think all the code in the MySQL query parser, the planner, and the various storage backends have been fully audited? This is a project that didn't even get authentication right.

peterwwillis 14y ago

From a security perspective it's good advice. I've never seen a shared web hosting provider whose boxes couldn't be owned by an account that could drop code and execute. Local priv escalation holes seem to be a dime a dozen and you don't know if they've even attempted to lock down their users' data. Now, do you really care if some community bulletin board's database gets owned? Probably not. But I wouldn't run a shopping cart on a shared hoster.

mike-cardwell 14y ago
"Now, do you really care if some community bulletin board's database gets owned? Probably not. But I wouldn't run a shopping cart on a shared hoster." I agree. tptacek is the one who disagrees with you. He thinks there is "never" a good reason to use shared hosting.
tptacek 14y ago
If you don't really care about security --- and I agree there are times when you shouldn't --- then by all means use the cheapest possible hosting option available to you. But if you care even a little about security, avoid shared hosting. I really don't understand Mike Cardwell's objection; I don't think what I'm saying is controversial at all. I actually thought I was making a relatively banal point.
- mike-cardwell 14y ago
  I'll just leave the following here. Maybe you can figure out from it what my point was: You: Attackers should never, ever be able to connect directly to your MySQL database directly Me: "Never" ... You are aware of the existence and mass use of shared web hosting systems right?
  - tptacek 14y ago
    I think you're having trouble with the intended target of the word "you" in my comment. I'm not writing to people hosting Minecraft forums on Dreamhost.