5 ms·

Here's your informed person bashing C: http://warp.povusers.org/grrr/HateC.html http://warp.povusers.org/grrr/HateC.html (Disclaimer: I like C more than C++, th

by Jach 14y ago

Here's your informed person bashing C: http://warp.povusers.org/grrr/HateC.html http://warp.povusers.org/grrr/HateC.html (Disclaimer: I like C more than C++, though I can't say I love either of them.) I do think there are bad languages. Brainfuck is terrible. Maybe there are no bad serious languages, but you'll have to define what you mean by serious, and you'll have to argue with Dijkstra's ghost when it comes to COBOL et al. (though I think he would have liked J). (His two famous quotes against COBOL come from http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~evans/cs655/readings/ewd498.html http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~evans/cs655/readings/ewd498.html) I don't think good/bad is really the best way to judge languages, I'm more interested in language power, fluidity, and library support. I'd agree that every language has a purpose, even if the purpose is as simple as making a joke like in the case of LOLCODE, and that people abuse the language beyond its intended purpose. I read somewhere someone asserting "Design patterns are missing language features" and I more-or-less agree with that.

Someone 14y ago
Why would he have liked J? I do not see how he would describe it differently from "a mistake, carried through past perfection". Also, slightly related: he may not have seen J, but http://www.dijkstrascry.com/node/90 http://www.dijkstrascry.com/node/90 shows that he can not have been totally unfamiliar with APL developments.
- Jach 14y ago
  I hadn't seen that note from him, thanks for the link. I think J solves a lot of the problems he makes of APL. It can be taught without a J interpreter, it doesn't require a special keyboard, and it offers abstraction capabilities. Also it's an answer to some positive things he talks about in this 1985 interview and elsewhere: http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/EWD/misc/vanVlissingenInterview.html http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/EWD/misc/vanVlissingenIntervi... It supports both functional and imperative styles and it's deeply rooted with mathematics. It's also "hard" and isn't made for the layman developer. It encourages a very logical thought-process. I would guess he'd think Haskell was superior, but I still think he'd at least consider J in higher regards to APL even if he didn't like it.
btilly 14y ago
Maybe there are no bad serious languages... How well do you know PHP?
merlincorey 14y ago
I do think there are bad languages. Brainfuck is terrible. Brainfuck is not terrible, it's just not easy on human eyes. Brainfuck is really a very simple 8 instruction turing machine designed to have the smallest possible compiler on the Amiga (240 bytes, at that). It is actually a derivation of p'', which is a programming language from the 60s used to describe a family of turing machines. Now, for a truly terrible language, I introduce you the only programming language named after the eighth circle of hell in Dante's Inferno... @@@@@@@@@@ @@@@@@ @@@ @@@@@@@ @@@@@@ @@@ @@@@@@@@ @@@@@@@@ @@@@@@@@@@@ @@@@@@@@ @@@ @@@@@@@@ @@@@@@@@ @@@ @@@@@@@@@ @@@@@@@@ @@! @@! @@! @@! @@@ @@! @@! @@@ @@! @@@ @@! !@@ @@! !@! !@! !@! !@! @!@ !@! !@ @!@ !@! @!@ !@! !@! !@! @!! !!@ @!@ @!@!@!@! @!! @!@!@!@ @!@ !@! @!! !@! @!@!@ @!!!:! !@! ! !@! !!!@!!!! !!! !!!@!!!! !@! !!! !!! !!! !!@!! !!!!!: !!: !!: !!: !!! !!: !!: !!! !!: !!! !!: :!! !!: !!: :!: :!: :!: !:! :!: :!: !:! :!: !:! :!: :!: !:: :!: ::: :: :: ::: :: :::: :: :::: ::::: :: :: :::: ::: :::: :: :::: : : : : : : :: : : :: : :: : : : : :: : : :: :: : : :: :: EsoLangs wiki entry: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Malbolge http://esolangs.org/wiki/Malbolge 99 Bottles: http://99-bottles-of-beer.net/language-malbolge-995.html http://99-bottles-of-beer.net/language-malbolge-995.html Writing programs in Malbolge is so difficult, typically one has to use another language to generate programs and search for a working malbolge program, or make extremely large programs that go on for pages. You have been warned!

by Jach 14y ago

Someone 14y ago

Why would he have liked J? I do not see how he would describe it differently from "a mistake, carried through past perfection". Also, slightly related: he may not have seen J, but http://www.dijkstrascry.com/node/90 http://www.dijkstrascry.com/node/90 shows that he can not have been totally unfamiliar with APL developments.

Jach 14y ago
I hadn't seen that note from him, thanks for the link. I think J solves a lot of the problems he makes of APL. It can be taught without a J interpreter, it doesn't require a special keyboard, and it offers abstraction capabilities. Also it's an answer to some positive things he talks about in this 1985 interview and elsewhere: http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/EWD/misc/vanVlissingenInterview.html http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/EWD/misc/vanVlissingenIntervi... It supports both functional and imperative styles and it's deeply rooted with mathematics. It's also "hard" and isn't made for the layman developer. It encourages a very logical thought-process. I would guess he'd think Haskell was superior, but I still think he'd at least consider J in higher regards to APL even if he didn't like it.

btilly 14y ago

Maybe there are no bad serious languages... How well do you know PHP?

merlincorey 14y ago

I do think there are bad languages. Brainfuck is terrible. Brainfuck is not terrible, it's just not easy on human eyes. Brainfuck is really a very simple 8 instruction turing machine designed to have the smallest possible compiler on the Amiga (240 bytes, at that). It is actually a derivation of p'', which is a programming language from the 60s used to describe a family of turing machines. Now, for a truly terrible language, I introduce you the only programming language named after the eighth circle of hell in Dante's Inferno... @@@@@@@@@@ @@@@@@ @@@ @@@@@@@ @@@@@@ @@@ @@@@@@@@ @@@@@@@@ @@@@@@@@@@@ @@@@@@@@ @@@ @@@@@@@@ @@@@@@@@ @@@ @@@@@@@@@ @@@@@@@@ @@! @@! @@! @@! @@@ @@! @@! @@@ @@! @@@ @@! !@@ @@! !@! !@! !@! !@! @!@ !@! !@ @!@ !@! @!@ !@! !@! !@! @!! !!@ @!@ @!@!@!@! @!! @!@!@!@ @!@ !@! @!! !@! @!@!@ @!!!:! !@! ! !@! !!!@!!!! !!! !!!@!!!! !@! !!! !!! !!! !!@!! !!!!!: !!: !!: !!: !!! !!: !!: !!! !!: !!! !!: :!! !!: !!: :!: :!: :!: !:! :!: :!: !:! :!: !:! :!: :!: !:: :!: ::: :: :: ::: :: :::: :: :::: ::::: :: :: :::: ::: :::: :: :::: : : : : : : :: : : :: : :: : : : : :: : : :: :: : : :: :: EsoLangs wiki entry: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Malbolge http://esolangs.org/wiki/Malbolge 99 Bottles: http://99-bottles-of-beer.net/language-malbolge-995.html http://99-bottles-of-beer.net/language-malbolge-995.html Writing programs in Malbolge is so difficult, typically one has to use another language to generate programs and search for a working malbolge program, or make extremely large programs that go on for pages. You have been warned!