8 ms·

A Hundred Years of Mocking Vegetarians

20 points by rustoo 2y ago

PotatoPancakes 2y ago
Full article here: https://web.archive.org/web/20240711173851/https://www.theatlantic.com/newsletters/archive/2024/07/america-has-never-really-known-what-to-make-of-vegetarians/678969/ https://web.archive.org/web/20240711173851/https://www.theat...
cut3 2y ago
[flagged]
- WalterSear 2y ago
  IMHO, it's more that accepting the consequences of their actions too threatening to their sense of self.
- notacoward 2y ago
  I believe that "live and let live" vs. "there can be only one" is an axis of difference as important as left vs. right or authoritarian vs. libertarian (with which it's weakly correlated). In that context, I'd say there are probably insecure prescriptivists on both sides of this particular fence, riling each other up. "Meat is murder" is the exact mirror image of the Bourdain quote that leads off the column. It's generally not persuasive, and often not meant to be. While it might actually be true in some sense, its purpose is often to demean and demonize those who make a different choice. Just as left and right sometimes forget their principles in their zeal to troll each other, so too do cyclists and car lovers ... or vegans and BBQ lovers. This article is no more than such a salvo.
  - banish-m4 2y ago
    There are many stupid choices: violent religious extremism, picking altercations with strangers, snakeoil wellness products, driving a giant diesel SUV without a seatbelt, trying to control others online, and listening to The Eagles. Eating meat is just a middling unsustainable practice amongst many. Organized civilization has about another 20-30 years before a cacophony of unsustainable practices brings it all crashing down because there is minimal appetite in enough centers of power for either awareness or reform. The Roman republic/empire is history that is repeating itself slowly.
globular-toast 2y ago
How simple are people's palates if they think vegetarian food is lacking in pleasure? No surprise to hear it from someone with a French sounding name, of course. Add any kind of spice to their food and don't know what's hit them. Italian and Indian food is where it's at. Is Indian food well known in the US? There's plenty in the UK but most generic "Indian" is mostly Punjabi in particular. It's not hard to find proper vegetarian Indian food if you look, though. I assume most people who are "offended" by it are harbouring guilt. Usual story.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- solardev 2y ago
  The US actually does have a lot of Indian restaurants (and ethnic and vegetarian places in general), especially near places with more population/diversity/Democrats (which all kinda go hand-in-hand here). Indian, Thai, Chinese and Japanese restaurants are in basically every strip mall (what we call a bunch of random small retail businesses sharing the same parking lot) and every downtown. However, even then, you're usually stuck with the same few options everywhere you go. At Indian restaurants you usually do have a bit more variety (thank you Hindis), but it's still the same like 9-10 entries... your typical chana masala, palak/matar paneer, aloo gobhi, pakora, biryani, etc. And if you're vegan, it's either the chana or the daal if you want any protein at all. At other ethnic places, it's typically more like 2-3 options if you're lucky: Some sort of mixed veggie tofu stir fry at the Chinese places, pad thai/kee mao without fish/oyster sauce at the Thai places, marinara/lasagna/eggplant at the Italian places, falafels at the Mediterranean places, etc. Even the specialist vegetarian/vegan places typically have very similar menus, usually fried comfort foods or various mock meats, with some sort of nutritional yeast & cashew sauce, topped with tofu, seitan or jackfruit. Compare that to the dozens of options a regular person would have at any restaurant, and the hundreds of restaurants in any city. Even with all the spices in the world, there's only so much you can do with legumes, grains, nuts, and leaves. You really do lose out on a lot of variety. Meats, milks, and eggs have taste and textures all their own, produced by the different animal species of the world. Only recently have we been able to replicate some of their tastes and textures in the lab from veggie ingredients, but it seems like that fad has mostly passed (Beyond and Impossible aren't doing so well, and the smaller brands remain niche, and omnivore interest around them has mostly waned.) I say that as someone who's been vegetarian and then vegan in the US for nearly 20 years. Yes, there's more to eat than most people think, but still way, WAY less than any omnivore or pescatarian would have access to. After all, they can eat all the same things too, but add whatever animal ingredients they want on top of it. The situation might be a little better if you're a good cook and can make delicious meals at home, but even then, you're fundamentally limited to trying to dress up generally bland plants & legumes with fancy sauces. And many cookbooks don't really provide balanced meals (typically lacking in satiety or protein), especially when vegan. Overall, it's just a lot of time, effort, and expense, and greatly limits your dining options and also your social options (eating out with friends, going over to their place, hosting them for dinner, etc.). Hasn't really been a big problem since it kinda ends up being self-selecting anyway (the vegetarianism has good overlap with people who also share my values, hobbies, love of the outdoors, etc.), but that's a regional cultural thing. In more conservative/traditional areas, it would be absolute social suicide. Food is huge in many cultures and subcultures, and disavowing 90% of what people eat is a good way to get yourself shunned and mocked.
recursivedoubts 2y ago
you know who else was a vegetarian...
- laidoffamazon 2y ago
  My favorite founding father, Ben Franklin? [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_Franklin#Vegetarianism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_Franklin#Vegetarianis...
  - recursivedoubts 2y ago
    exactly[0] [0] - https://history.howstuffworks.com/history-vs-myth/skeletons-in-ben-franklins-basement.htm https://history.howstuffworks.com/history-vs-myth/skeletons-...
- solardev 2y ago
  Natalie Portman?
neocritter 2y ago
Most people will never personally encounter more than 0-1 of any rare or uncommon way of thinking or living. The loudest people are the most self-sure and radical, which makes them ideal candidates for those rare encounters. They come to represent the whole for most people who aren't practiced at seeing past that sort of thing. You don't think about the vegetarians around you who keep to themselves and go about their way of life without trying to push it on others, so they're quietly embarrassed by those noisy few. At least that's my guess. I don't know that I know any vegetarians.
- rhapsodic 2y ago
  [dead]
A4ET8a8uTh0 2y ago
[flagged]
MortyAnvil 2y ago
I think this is often a case of people dealing with cognitive dissonance. It's pretty easy to understand that in at least North America our livestock handling practices cause a huge amount of suffering to animals for the enjoyment of people. But most people are able to ignore / justify that with a "well, it's bad but you gotta eat". When presented with a group of people who make the choice not to eat animals / contribute to that suffering it challenges that justification and makes people very uncomfortable and in some cases angry. The easiest way to resolve this conflict is to mock those people and write them off as some kind of sanctimonious kill joys
- nathanaldensr 2y ago
  I'd say wanting to eat to live doesn't require a justification.
  - MortyAnvil 2y ago
    In North America (which is the only area I'm even remotely qualified to speak on so will limit to that) it's entirely possible, and often healthier, to not have meat in your diet. The justification I'm talking about is about choosing personal enjoyment over animal welfare. It's easy to couch it in "you need to eat meat" like you've just done but vegetarians show that that's categorically not true in a many cases
    - banish-m4 2y ago
      Animal welfare, while laudable and under-appreciated, isn't the biggest problem with meat ag. It's fucking killing us slowly and may kill us quickly.
  - globular-toast 2y ago
    Most people are overweight. It's not about survival. It's 100% a choice.
- banish-m4 2y ago
  That's historically the least-persuasive argument for vegetarianism. The far greater threats are anthropogenic climate change, antibiotic resistance, accelerated pandemic evolution, land/water/air pollution, higher food prices, and less total available food. The cognitive dissonance is very strong because people get violently defensive with their somatic lifestyle choices and will believe and do almost anything to extend them indefinitely. The only way out is leadership to tax, reform, and regulate excessively-subsidized meat agriculture that isn't good for public health.
throwup238 2y ago
> For a rare lifestyle choice—one that is selfless, and also fundamentally personal—vegetarianism tends to drive people pretty bonkers. This is why vegetarians get mocked. Because they say stuff like "selfless lifestyle choice." On the other hand, I've never seen practicing Hindu's made fun of for their vegetarian diets, whether that's on the West coast or in the Midwest, because they're not wearing it on their sleeve as part of their identity. I'm loving the rise of vegetarian/vegan food which has improved the quality and availability of non-meat dishes all over the place, but all sides of this mini culture war are insufferable.
- MortyAnvil 2y ago
  A quick look and the author of this article doesn't appear to be a vegetarian. So I don't believe this is case of vegetarians self aggrandizing, but one writers appraisal of the lifestyle choice.
nabla9 2y ago
What I find strange is that so few people mock Jews, Muslims for not eating pig or their kosher rules. Or, if someone is vegetarian because they are Hindu.
- throwawa14223 2y ago
  Maybe this is because I'm in a fairly liberal big city, but the only time I see people mocking vegans is when they try to make converts, similar to how they would treat any of the other groups trying.
  - MortyAnvil 2y ago
    Growing up in a very meat heavy conservative place I have often been in conversations with people who mock vegetarians for existing. Anecdotally I've been at a party and a family friend was sharing a "super funny story" where his daughters boyfriend brought Beyond Sausages and he said "I hope you brought sides cause I'm not putting that sissy shit on my grill". This story got a big laugh from all the boomers / older Gen X folks
- solardev 2y ago
  I think it's generally easier for people to understand and respect another religion than a science-based ethical framework. You tell them you do or don't do something because of a religion, they'll just nod and shut up. You tell them you don't do it because of environmental or animal reason X, Y, Z and they'll look at you like you're from another planet. At least if you have a health reason for it (cholestesterol, etc.) they can empathize and probably pity you as opposed to judge you. I think most kids are raised with an understanding that many people they meet will have different religious beliefs and that they can't be rude about it. Comparatively, only what, maybe 10% of the world is vegetarian, and of those, maybe 2-5% are vegan? And except in rare cases (Hindu, some Buddhists), those beliefs aren't usually backed by the force of mainstream belief. Makes for an easy target. Even when I travel to Asia, in the more rural areas it's hard to convey an accurate meaning of Western vegetarianism, and especially veganism. Different cultures have different categorizations for meats, poultry, fish, shellfish, eggs, milk, etc., like many don't really consider fish to be meat. As a proxy, I often have to ask for something to be made "Buddhist vegetarian" instead (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhist_vegetarianism#Common_practices https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhist_vegetarianism#Common_...) – again a religious practice, and unfortunately one that excludes delicious toppings like garlic, onions, etc. Elsewhere in the world, where there's no religious proxies, it's even harder. You're basically left with specialist vegan restaurants or nothing to eat at all.
goda90 2y ago
Do any vegetarians/vegans on HN want to chime in with their opinions about meat substitutes like Impossible and Beyond? Personally, I eat meat, but I don't take issue with people who don't, and I'm glad they have more and more options, many of which I enjoy myself. But I'm not a big fan of those substitutes. I'd rather have meat, or a more traditional vegetarian/vegan dish(even something like a black bean burger).
- MortyAnvil 2y ago
  I'm a huge fan. I became veggie because I don't like the process that creates a burger. But brother do I fucking love burgers. So anything that comes close to letting me eat the food I grew up with and love without the practices I don't is rad
- xnx 2y ago
  Impossible and Beyond burgers, sausages, and crumbles are fantastic. Total drop-in replacement for their flesh counterparts. Breaded nuggets are also indistinguishable. Oscar Mayer and Impossible just both introduced plant-based hot dogs that are uncanny. One area still lacking is a plant-based alternative to lean meats like chicken. Simulate has a chicken ("chicken") breast, but I haven't tried it yet.
  - solardev 2y ago
    Daring Chicken is pretty good, IMO, for shredded chicken. Doesn't quite have the same visceral flesh tearing pleasure as real dead bird, but it's yummy enough on its own and something my partner and I both enjoy a lot.
  - Karrot_Kream 2y ago
    I find seitan makes a good chicken breast substitute if that's what I'm craving.
- slwvx 2y ago
  I'm pretty close to vegetarian, and don't find a need to ever eat meat substitutes. Every Indian and Mediterranean restaurant will have a vegetarian option, and elsewhere you can get a salad.

20 points by rustoo 2y ago

Full article here: https://web.archive.org/web/20240711173851/https://www.theatlantic.com/newsletters/archive/2024/07/america-has-never-really-known-what-to-make-of-vegetarians/678969/ https://web.archive.org/web/20240711173851/https://www.theat...

cut3 2y ago

[flagged]

WalterSear 2y ago
IMHO, it's more that accepting the consequences of their actions too threatening to their sense of self.
notacoward 2y ago
I believe that "live and let live" vs. "there can be only one" is an axis of difference as important as left vs. right or authoritarian vs. libertarian (with which it's weakly correlated). In that context, I'd say there are probably insecure prescriptivists on both sides of this particular fence, riling each other up. "Meat is murder" is the exact mirror image of the Bourdain quote that leads off the column. It's generally not persuasive, and often not meant to be. While it might actually be true in some sense, its purpose is often to demean and demonize those who make a different choice. Just as left and right sometimes forget their principles in their zeal to troll each other, so too do cyclists and car lovers ... or vegans and BBQ lovers. This article is no more than such a salvo.
- banish-m4 2y ago
  There are many stupid choices: violent religious extremism, picking altercations with strangers, snakeoil wellness products, driving a giant diesel SUV without a seatbelt, trying to control others online, and listening to The Eagles. Eating meat is just a middling unsustainable practice amongst many. Organized civilization has about another 20-30 years before a cacophony of unsustainable practices brings it all crashing down because there is minimal appetite in enough centers of power for either awareness or reform. The Roman republic/empire is history that is repeating itself slowly.

globular-toast 2y ago

How simple are people's palates if they think vegetarian food is lacking in pleasure? No surprise to hear it from someone with a French sounding name, of course. Add any kind of spice to their food and don't know what's hit them. Italian and Indian food is where it's at. Is Indian food well known in the US? There's plenty in the UK but most generic "Indian" is mostly Punjabi in particular. It's not hard to find proper vegetarian Indian food if you look, though. I assume most people who are "offended" by it are harbouring guilt. Usual story.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
solardev 2y ago
The US actually does have a lot of Indian restaurants (and ethnic and vegetarian places in general), especially near places with more population/diversity/Democrats (which all kinda go hand-in-hand here). Indian, Thai, Chinese and Japanese restaurants are in basically every strip mall (what we call a bunch of random small retail businesses sharing the same parking lot) and every downtown. However, even then, you're usually stuck with the same few options everywhere you go. At Indian restaurants you usually do have a bit more variety (thank you Hindis), but it's still the same like 9-10 entries... your typical chana masala, palak/matar paneer, aloo gobhi, pakora, biryani, etc. And if you're vegan, it's either the chana or the daal if you want any protein at all. At other ethnic places, it's typically more like 2-3 options if you're lucky: Some sort of mixed veggie tofu stir fry at the Chinese places, pad thai/kee mao without fish/oyster sauce at the Thai places, marinara/lasagna/eggplant at the Italian places, falafels at the Mediterranean places, etc. Even the specialist vegetarian/vegan places typically have very similar menus, usually fried comfort foods or various mock meats, with some sort of nutritional yeast & cashew sauce, topped with tofu, seitan or jackfruit. Compare that to the dozens of options a regular person would have at any restaurant, and the hundreds of restaurants in any city. Even with all the spices in the world, there's only so much you can do with legumes, grains, nuts, and leaves. You really do lose out on a lot of variety. Meats, milks, and eggs have taste and textures all their own, produced by the different animal species of the world. Only recently have we been able to replicate some of their tastes and textures in the lab from veggie ingredients, but it seems like that fad has mostly passed (Beyond and Impossible aren't doing so well, and the smaller brands remain niche, and omnivore interest around them has mostly waned.) I say that as someone who's been vegetarian and then vegan in the US for nearly 20 years. Yes, there's more to eat than most people think, but still way, WAY less than any omnivore or pescatarian would have access to. After all, they can eat all the same things too, but add whatever animal ingredients they want on top of it. The situation might be a little better if you're a good cook and can make delicious meals at home, but even then, you're fundamentally limited to trying to dress up generally bland plants & legumes with fancy sauces. And many cookbooks don't really provide balanced meals (typically lacking in satiety or protein), especially when vegan. Overall, it's just a lot of time, effort, and expense, and greatly limits your dining options and also your social options (eating out with friends, going over to their place, hosting them for dinner, etc.). Hasn't really been a big problem since it kinda ends up being self-selecting anyway (the vegetarianism has good overlap with people who also share my values, hobbies, love of the outdoors, etc.), but that's a regional cultural thing. In more conservative/traditional areas, it would be absolute social suicide. Food is huge in many cultures and subcultures, and disavowing 90% of what people eat is a good way to get yourself shunned and mocked.

recursivedoubts 2y ago

you know who else was a vegetarian...

laidoffamazon 2y ago
My favorite founding father, Ben Franklin? [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_Franklin#Vegetarianism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_Franklin#Vegetarianis...
- recursivedoubts 2y ago
  exactly[0] [0] - https://history.howstuffworks.com/history-vs-myth/skeletons-in-ben-franklins-basement.htm https://history.howstuffworks.com/history-vs-myth/skeletons-...
solardev 2y ago
Natalie Portman?

neocritter 2y ago

Most people will never personally encounter more than 0-1 of any rare or uncommon way of thinking or living. The loudest people are the most self-sure and radical, which makes them ideal candidates for those rare encounters. They come to represent the whole for most people who aren't practiced at seeing past that sort of thing. You don't think about the vegetarians around you who keep to themselves and go about their way of life without trying to push it on others, so they're quietly embarrassed by those noisy few. At least that's my guess. I don't know that I know any vegetarians.

rhapsodic 2y ago
[dead]

A4ET8a8uTh0 2y ago

[flagged]

MortyAnvil 2y ago

I think this is often a case of people dealing with cognitive dissonance. It's pretty easy to understand that in at least North America our livestock handling practices cause a huge amount of suffering to animals for the enjoyment of people. But most people are able to ignore / justify that with a "well, it's bad but you gotta eat". When presented with a group of people who make the choice not to eat animals / contribute to that suffering it challenges that justification and makes people very uncomfortable and in some cases angry. The easiest way to resolve this conflict is to mock those people and write them off as some kind of sanctimonious kill joys

nathanaldensr 2y ago
I'd say wanting to eat to live doesn't require a justification.
- MortyAnvil 2y ago
  In North America (which is the only area I'm even remotely qualified to speak on so will limit to that) it's entirely possible, and often healthier, to not have meat in your diet. The justification I'm talking about is about choosing personal enjoyment over animal welfare. It's easy to couch it in "you need to eat meat" like you've just done but vegetarians show that that's categorically not true in a many cases
  - banish-m4 2y ago
    Animal welfare, while laudable and under-appreciated, isn't the biggest problem with meat ag. It's fucking killing us slowly and may kill us quickly.
- globular-toast 2y ago
  Most people are overweight. It's not about survival. It's 100% a choice.
banish-m4 2y ago
That's historically the least-persuasive argument for vegetarianism. The far greater threats are anthropogenic climate change, antibiotic resistance, accelerated pandemic evolution, land/water/air pollution, higher food prices, and less total available food. The cognitive dissonance is very strong because people get violently defensive with their somatic lifestyle choices and will believe and do almost anything to extend them indefinitely. The only way out is leadership to tax, reform, and regulate excessively-subsidized meat agriculture that isn't good for public health.

throwup238 2y ago

> For a rare lifestyle choice—one that is selfless, and also fundamentally personal—vegetarianism tends to drive people pretty bonkers. This is why vegetarians get mocked. Because they say stuff like "selfless lifestyle choice." On the other hand, I've never seen practicing Hindu's made fun of for their vegetarian diets, whether that's on the West coast or in the Midwest, because they're not wearing it on their sleeve as part of their identity. I'm loving the rise of vegetarian/vegan food which has improved the quality and availability of non-meat dishes all over the place, but all sides of this mini culture war are insufferable.

MortyAnvil 2y ago
A quick look and the author of this article doesn't appear to be a vegetarian. So I don't believe this is case of vegetarians self aggrandizing, but one writers appraisal of the lifestyle choice.

nabla9 2y ago

What I find strange is that so few people mock Jews, Muslims for not eating pig or their kosher rules. Or, if someone is vegetarian because they are Hindu.

throwawa14223 2y ago
Maybe this is because I'm in a fairly liberal big city, but the only time I see people mocking vegans is when they try to make converts, similar to how they would treat any of the other groups trying.
- MortyAnvil 2y ago
  Growing up in a very meat heavy conservative place I have often been in conversations with people who mock vegetarians for existing. Anecdotally I've been at a party and a family friend was sharing a "super funny story" where his daughters boyfriend brought Beyond Sausages and he said "I hope you brought sides cause I'm not putting that sissy shit on my grill". This story got a big laugh from all the boomers / older Gen X folks
solardev 2y ago
I think it's generally easier for people to understand and respect another religion than a science-based ethical framework. You tell them you do or don't do something because of a religion, they'll just nod and shut up. You tell them you don't do it because of environmental or animal reason X, Y, Z and they'll look at you like you're from another planet. At least if you have a health reason for it (cholestesterol, etc.) they can empathize and probably pity you as opposed to judge you. I think most kids are raised with an understanding that many people they meet will have different religious beliefs and that they can't be rude about it. Comparatively, only what, maybe 10% of the world is vegetarian, and of those, maybe 2-5% are vegan? And except in rare cases (Hindu, some Buddhists), those beliefs aren't usually backed by the force of mainstream belief. Makes for an easy target. Even when I travel to Asia, in the more rural areas it's hard to convey an accurate meaning of Western vegetarianism, and especially veganism. Different cultures have different categorizations for meats, poultry, fish, shellfish, eggs, milk, etc., like many don't really consider fish to be meat. As a proxy, I often have to ask for something to be made "Buddhist vegetarian" instead (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhist_vegetarianism#Common_practices https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhist_vegetarianism#Common_...) – again a religious practice, and unfortunately one that excludes delicious toppings like garlic, onions, etc. Elsewhere in the world, where there's no religious proxies, it's even harder. You're basically left with specialist vegan restaurants or nothing to eat at all.

goda90 2y ago

Do any vegetarians/vegans on HN want to chime in with their opinions about meat substitutes like Impossible and Beyond? Personally, I eat meat, but I don't take issue with people who don't, and I'm glad they have more and more options, many of which I enjoy myself. But I'm not a big fan of those substitutes. I'd rather have meat, or a more traditional vegetarian/vegan dish(even something like a black bean burger).

MortyAnvil 2y ago
I'm a huge fan. I became veggie because I don't like the process that creates a burger. But brother do I fucking love burgers. So anything that comes close to letting me eat the food I grew up with and love without the practices I don't is rad
xnx 2y ago
Impossible and Beyond burgers, sausages, and crumbles are fantastic. Total drop-in replacement for their flesh counterparts. Breaded nuggets are also indistinguishable. Oscar Mayer and Impossible just both introduced plant-based hot dogs that are uncanny. One area still lacking is a plant-based alternative to lean meats like chicken. Simulate has a chicken ("chicken") breast, but I haven't tried it yet.
- solardev 2y ago
  Daring Chicken is pretty good, IMO, for shredded chicken. Doesn't quite have the same visceral flesh tearing pleasure as real dead bird, but it's yummy enough on its own and something my partner and I both enjoy a lot.
- Karrot_Kream 2y ago
  I find seitan makes a good chicken breast substitute if that's what I'm craving.
slwvx 2y ago
I'm pretty close to vegetarian, and don't find a need to ever eat meat substitutes. Every Indian and Mediterranean restaurant will have a vegetarian option, and elsewhere you can get a salad.