4 ms·

>It's because X's config files were asking you questions that there was no good way of knowing the answers to other than trial-and-error. You didn't have to gu

>It's because X's config files were asking you questions that there was no good way of knowing the answers to other than trial-and-error. You didn't have to guess, you just had to read the specs in the manual that came with your equipment.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
xenophonf 2y ago
Those specs weren't readily available to non-experts, never mind what to do with them. For a trip down memory lane, read through the XFree86 Video Timings HOWTO (https://tldp.org/HOWTO/XFree86-Video-Timings-HOWTO/index.html https://tldp.org/HOWTO/XFree86-Video-Timings-HOWTO/index.htm...). Getting stuff to work in the Good Old Days was _not_ easy.
- anthk 2y ago
  30-70h, 50-160v =) I still remember that. And xf86cfg, and how much Debian was improved when Sarge arrived.
robinsonb5 2y ago
The manual that came with your laptop of 25 years ago isn't going to tell you whether your touchpad is Alps or Synaptic, or which PS/2 protocol it imitates.
- neilv 2y ago
  True. Though laptops were in some ways easier than desktops, since laptops tended to have the same set of hardware in each unit, so hopefully you only had to find an `XF86Config` or `xorg.conf` that someone had shared for that model. Examples: http://www.neilvandyke.org/linux-thinkpad-560e/XF86Config-tp560e http://www.neilvandyke.org/linux-thinkpad-560e/XF86Config-tp... https://www.neilvandyke.org/linux-thinkpad-x20/xorg.conf https://www.neilvandyke.org/linux-thinkpad-x20/xorg.conf
giantrobot 2y ago
> You didn't have to guess, you just had to read the specs in the manual that didn't come with your equipment. Hey you missed a word so I added it in for you. Most consumer PC equipment definitely did not come with any documentation covering the sort of stuff X's config file was asking about. When that documentation was available it was something you could only get by contacting the manufacturer about. But you couldn't mention the word "Linux" because the CS rep would give a blanket "we don't support Linux" and you'd get nothing.
- tedunangst 2y ago
  Sure it did. There was a page in the pamphlet that came with my viewsonic 15" that listed the supported timings. You just threw it away, but that's not X's fault.
  - happymellon 2y ago
    No, I had plenty of equipment that came with a little piece of printed paper that came with not quite enough information to be useful.
jagger27 2y ago
> Just RTFM Ahh Linux people. Some things will never change.
blueflow 2y ago
To the people down-voting you: X is from a time when devices actually came with manuals. When the people using it were engineers and scientists and reading a datasheet or a manual was a normal thing to them. I think this started around the 90ies that devices turned into magic black box consumables that are expected to "just work" while being undiagnosable when they don't.
- II2II 2y ago
  > To the people down-voting you: X is from a time when devices actually came with manuals. To a degree. At least from my experience, something like a monitor and video card manual would provide you with enough information to filter through a list of example modelines to figure out which ones may work. Yet they did not provide enough information to create your own modelines. > devices turned into magic black box consumables that are expected to "just work" while being undiagnosable when they don't. "Just work" and being diagnosable are not mutually exclusive concepts. For the most part, the Linux ecosystem reflected that and still reflects that. I suspect the shift in behavior actually came from end users. They were less willing to look through the diagnostic messages and far less willing to jump through hurdles for things that they thought should just work.
- derefr 2y ago
  > I think this started around the 90ies that devices turned into magic black box consumables that are expected to "just work" while being undiagnosable when they don't. I would say that it's more that the architectures where a manual created by the integrator could tell you anything useful, became irrelevant/obviated by architectures where it wouldn't. Including a manual with a printed wiring block diagram of the hardware, made sense in the 1970s, when you (or the repair guy you called) needed something to guide your multimeter-probe-points for repair of a board consisting of a bunch of analogue parts. And such a manual still made sense in the 1980s, now for guiding your oscilloscope signal-probing of jellybean digital-logic parts ("three NOT gates in a DIP package" kind of things) to figure out which ones have blown their magic smoke. But once you get to the 90s, you get complex ICs that merge (integrate!) 90% of the stuff that was previously sitting out as separate components on the board; and what's remaining on the board at that point, besides those few ICs, just becomes about supporting those complex ICs. At that point, all of the breakage modes that matter, start to happen inside the ICs. And if it's the ICs that are broken, then you none of the information from a wiring block diagram is going to be helpful; no problem you encounter is likely to be solved by probing across the board. Rather, you'll only ever be probing the pins of an individual IC. Which means that what really helps, in the 90s and still today, are pin-out diagrams for each individual IC. Providing that information isn't really the responsibility of the board manufacturer, though; they didn't make the ICs they're using. Rather, it's the responsibility of the IC company — who you don't have any direct relationship with, and therefore who don't have cause to be sending you you data-sheets. Thankfully, these IC companies do sell these parts; and so they mostly have their IC data-sheets online. (No idea how you would have figured any of this out in the 90s, though. Maybe the 90s equivalent of Digikey kept phonebook-thick binders containing all the datasheets they receive along with the parts they order, and maybe repair people could order [photo]copies of that binder from them?)
kevin_thibedeau 2y ago
Modelines required timing information that was rarely available. You made a best guess and tweaked the numbers until it worked.
- yencabulator 2y ago
  Or you hunted around in the pre-WWW world for a modeline database, and hoped your monitor was included. Here's a more modern incarnation and more background (the non-stippled kind): https://www.mythtv.org/wiki/Modeline_Database https://www.mythtv.org/wiki/Modeline_Database https://tldp.org/HOWTO/XFree86-Video-Timings-HOWTO/ https://tldp.org/HOWTO/XFree86-Video-Timings-HOWTO/ https://nyanpasu64.gitlab.io/blog/crt-modeline-cvt-interlacing/ https://nyanpasu64.gitlab.io/blog/crt-modeline-cvt-interlaci... https://xtiming.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/xtiming.pl https://xtiming.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/xtiming.pl
babypuncher 2y ago
That's already more work than other operating systems of the late '90s made you do to get a functioning mouse, keyboard, and display.
- josefx 2y ago
  Given that the example mentioned above was about making the scroll wheel work? When Microsoft released the IntelliMouse it came with a driver disk, just plugging in the mouse without reading the manual left you with a non functional scroll wheel. Support for Microsoft style mice by later versions of Windows also did not stop companies from requiring their own drivers to enable non standard functionality.
Asooka 2y ago
lol () / Oh wait you're \ JL | serious. Let me | || \laugh even harder./ LJ . _,--"""""""---. . ,' `. . / \ . J L . F L J J | J ___L______________ J /,---------------. "". J JJ / \/ | J J LL J J | L J JJ J # J # | L | \\__`.___,_`.____,' F | ""-.---------....___/ | |_T--+---+--.,._ | |--|----\---\-`. | |__|____J___J_ F F _|__|____|___|_/ L | L |____________________M-K LMFAO
derefr 2y ago
Lucky you, buying computer hardware new-in-box :) I think, for at least the first 30 years of my life, every Linux system I've ever built was with "hand-me-down" hardware. First hardware from my parents, then from various friends, then finally from my own expired projects. When I was young (eleven!), this meant that we'd get a new computer, and now the very old computer it replaced could be repurposed as a "playground" for me to try various things — like installing Linux on — rather than throwing it out. (My first Linux install was Slackware 3.4 on a Pentium 166 machine. Not the best hardware for 1998!) Nary a manual in sight; of course my parents didn't keep those, especially for something like a monitor. When I was a teenager, this meant getting hand-me-down hardware from friends who had taken the parts out of their own machines as they upgraded them. Never thought to ask for manuals, of course. (Also, sometimes I just found things like monitors laying on the side of the road — and my existing stuff was so old that this "junk" was an upgrade!) And during my early adulthood, my "main rig" was almost always a Windows or (Hackintoshed) macOS machine. So it was still the "residue" of parts that left that rig as it got upgraded, that came together to form a weird little secondary Linux system. (So I could have kept the manuals at this point; but by then, the manuals weren't needed any more, as everything did become more PnP.) It's only very recently that I bought a machine just to throw Linux on it. (Mostly because I wanted to replace my loud, power-sucking Frankenstein box, with one of those silent little NUC-like boxes you can find on Amazon that have an AMD APU in them, so I could just throw it into my entertainment center.) And funny enough... this thing didn't come with a manual, or even a (good) data-sheet! (Which is okay for HDMI these days, but meant that it was pretty hard to determine e.g. how many PCIe lanes the two M.2 slots on the board are collectively allocated.)

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

xenophonf 2y ago

Those specs weren't readily available to non-experts, never mind what to do with them. For a trip down memory lane, read through the XFree86 Video Timings HOWTO (https://tldp.org/HOWTO/XFree86-Video-Timings-HOWTO/index.html https://tldp.org/HOWTO/XFree86-Video-Timings-HOWTO/index.htm...). Getting stuff to work in the Good Old Days was _not_ easy.

anthk 2y ago
30-70h, 50-160v =) I still remember that. And xf86cfg, and how much Debian was improved when Sarge arrived.

robinsonb5 2y ago

The manual that came with your laptop of 25 years ago isn't going to tell you whether your touchpad is Alps or Synaptic, or which PS/2 protocol it imitates.

neilv 2y ago
True. Though laptops were in some ways easier than desktops, since laptops tended to have the same set of hardware in each unit, so hopefully you only had to find an `XF86Config` or `xorg.conf` that someone had shared for that model. Examples: http://www.neilvandyke.org/linux-thinkpad-560e/XF86Config-tp560e http://www.neilvandyke.org/linux-thinkpad-560e/XF86Config-tp... https://www.neilvandyke.org/linux-thinkpad-x20/xorg.conf https://www.neilvandyke.org/linux-thinkpad-x20/xorg.conf

giantrobot 2y ago

> You didn't have to guess, you just had to read the specs in the manual that didn't come with your equipment. Hey you missed a word so I added it in for you. Most consumer PC equipment definitely did not come with any documentation covering the sort of stuff X's config file was asking about. When that documentation was available it was something you could only get by contacting the manufacturer about. But you couldn't mention the word "Linux" because the CS rep would give a blanket "we don't support Linux" and you'd get nothing.

tedunangst 2y ago
Sure it did. There was a page in the pamphlet that came with my viewsonic 15" that listed the supported timings. You just threw it away, but that's not X's fault.
- happymellon 2y ago
  No, I had plenty of equipment that came with a little piece of printed paper that came with not quite enough information to be useful.

jagger27 2y ago

> Just RTFM Ahh Linux people. Some things will never change.

blueflow 2y ago

To the people down-voting you: X is from a time when devices actually came with manuals. When the people using it were engineers and scientists and reading a datasheet or a manual was a normal thing to them. I think this started around the 90ies that devices turned into magic black box consumables that are expected to "just work" while being undiagnosable when they don't.

II2II 2y ago
> To the people down-voting you: X is from a time when devices actually came with manuals. To a degree. At least from my experience, something like a monitor and video card manual would provide you with enough information to filter through a list of example modelines to figure out which ones may work. Yet they did not provide enough information to create your own modelines. > devices turned into magic black box consumables that are expected to "just work" while being undiagnosable when they don't. "Just work" and being diagnosable are not mutually exclusive concepts. For the most part, the Linux ecosystem reflected that and still reflects that. I suspect the shift in behavior actually came from end users. They were less willing to look through the diagnostic messages and far less willing to jump through hurdles for things that they thought should just work.
derefr 2y ago
> I think this started around the 90ies that devices turned into magic black box consumables that are expected to "just work" while being undiagnosable when they don't. I would say that it's more that the architectures where a manual created by the integrator could tell you anything useful, became irrelevant/obviated by architectures where it wouldn't. Including a manual with a printed wiring block diagram of the hardware, made sense in the 1970s, when you (or the repair guy you called) needed something to guide your multimeter-probe-points for repair of a board consisting of a bunch of analogue parts. And such a manual still made sense in the 1980s, now for guiding your oscilloscope signal-probing of jellybean digital-logic parts ("three NOT gates in a DIP package" kind of things) to figure out which ones have blown their magic smoke. But once you get to the 90s, you get complex ICs that merge (integrate!) 90% of the stuff that was previously sitting out as separate components on the board; and what's remaining on the board at that point, besides those few ICs, just becomes about supporting those complex ICs. At that point, all of the breakage modes that matter, start to happen inside the ICs. And if it's the ICs that are broken, then you none of the information from a wiring block diagram is going to be helpful; no problem you encounter is likely to be solved by probing across the board. Rather, you'll only ever be probing the pins of an individual IC. Which means that what really helps, in the 90s and still today, are pin-out diagrams for each individual IC. Providing that information isn't really the responsibility of the board manufacturer, though; they didn't make the ICs they're using. Rather, it's the responsibility of the IC company — who you don't have any direct relationship with, and therefore who don't have cause to be sending you you data-sheets. Thankfully, these IC companies do sell these parts; and so they mostly have their IC data-sheets online. (No idea how you would have figured any of this out in the 90s, though. Maybe the 90s equivalent of Digikey kept phonebook-thick binders containing all the datasheets they receive along with the parts they order, and maybe repair people could order [photo]copies of that binder from them?)

kevin_thibedeau 2y ago

Modelines required timing information that was rarely available. You made a best guess and tweaked the numbers until it worked.

yencabulator 2y ago
Or you hunted around in the pre-WWW world for a modeline database, and hoped your monitor was included. Here's a more modern incarnation and more background (the non-stippled kind): https://www.mythtv.org/wiki/Modeline_Database https://www.mythtv.org/wiki/Modeline_Database https://tldp.org/HOWTO/XFree86-Video-Timings-HOWTO/ https://tldp.org/HOWTO/XFree86-Video-Timings-HOWTO/ https://nyanpasu64.gitlab.io/blog/crt-modeline-cvt-interlacing/ https://nyanpasu64.gitlab.io/blog/crt-modeline-cvt-interlaci... https://xtiming.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/xtiming.pl https://xtiming.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/xtiming.pl

babypuncher 2y ago

That's already more work than other operating systems of the late '90s made you do to get a functioning mouse, keyboard, and display.

josefx 2y ago
Given that the example mentioned above was about making the scroll wheel work? When Microsoft released the IntelliMouse it came with a driver disk, just plugging in the mouse without reading the manual left you with a non functional scroll wheel. Support for Microsoft style mice by later versions of Windows also did not stop companies from requiring their own drivers to enable non standard functionality.

Asooka 2y ago

lol () / Oh wait you're \ JL | serious. Let me | || \laugh even harder./ LJ . _,--"""""""---. . ,' `. . / \ . J L . F L J J | J ___L______________ J /,---------------. "". J JJ / \/ | J J LL J J | L J JJ J # J # | L | \\__`.___,_`.____,' F | ""-.---------....___/ | |_T--+---+--.,._ | |--|----\---\-`. | |__|____J___J_ F F _|__|____|___|_/ L | L |____________________M-K LMFAO

derefr 2y ago

Lucky you, buying computer hardware new-in-box :) I think, for at least the first 30 years of my life, every Linux system I've ever built was with "hand-me-down" hardware. First hardware from my parents, then from various friends, then finally from my own expired projects. When I was young (eleven!), this meant that we'd get a new computer, and now the very old computer it replaced could be repurposed as a "playground" for me to try various things — like installing Linux on — rather than throwing it out. (My first Linux install was Slackware 3.4 on a Pentium 166 machine. Not the best hardware for 1998!) Nary a manual in sight; of course my parents didn't keep those, especially for something like a monitor. When I was a teenager, this meant getting hand-me-down hardware from friends who had taken the parts out of their own machines as they upgraded them. Never thought to ask for manuals, of course. (Also, sometimes I just found things like monitors laying on the side of the road — and my existing stuff was so old that this "junk" was an upgrade!) And during my early adulthood, my "main rig" was almost always a Windows or (Hackintoshed) macOS machine. So it was still the "residue" of parts that left that rig as it got upgraded, that came together to form a weird little secondary Linux system. (So I could have kept the manuals at this point; but by then, the manuals weren't needed any more, as everything did become more PnP.) It's only very recently that I bought a machine just to throw Linux on it. (Mostly because I wanted to replace my loud, power-sucking Frankenstein box, with one of those silent little NUC-like boxes you can find on Amazon that have an AMD APU in them, so I could just throw it into my entertainment center.) And funny enough... this thing didn't come with a manual, or even a (good) data-sheet! (Which is okay for HDMI these days, but meant that it was pretty hard to determine e.g. how many PCIe lanes the two M.2 slots on the board are collectively allocated.)