3 ms·

Why did you put quotes around "war"? It may be other things, but it's definitely not just a "reaction", "retaliation", or "police action"...

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
axxto 2y ago
> Why did you put quotes around "war"? It may be other things I think you answered yourself right there
racional 2y ago
[flagged]
- nh23423fefe 2y ago
  this sophistry is why i hate politics on HN.
  - anigbrowl 2y ago
    But it matters. Hamas are non-state actors; if the conflict is legally characterized by Israel as a war, then prisoners have POW rights. Nobody is entirely sure at this point exactly what Israel's legal position is, which is going to have complex ramifications given that Israeli officials have already been charged by the ICC. https://lieber.westpoint.edu/israels-declaration-war-hamas-modern-invocation-recognized-belligerency/ https://lieber.westpoint.edu/israels-declaration-war-hamas-m...
    - readthenotes1 2y ago
      Thanks for that!
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - racional 2y ago
    The sophistry resides in the gap between the current government's stated reasons for conducting the operation in the way that it has -- and its actual, inner reasons. I am but the messenger.
  - bhouston 2y ago
    The population of Gaza is actually the concentration of the descendants the former non Jewish population of nearby communities in Israel who were driven out during the Nabka. Many in Israel are calling this war Nakba 2. Here is some quote from Israelis in this regards: https://thehill.com/opinion/international/4313276-israel-is-threatening-a-second-nakba-but-its-already-happening/ https://thehill.com/opinion/international/4313276-israel-is-... There are also policy papers to this effect that leaked from Israel: https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/israel-gaza-palestinians-concept-paper-1.7015576 https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/israel-gaza-palestinians-conce... So this fear is an outcome some are advocating for but all world leaders are strongly opposed.
- edanm 2y ago
  This is absolutely not true. Whatever else you many think of what's happening, this is just a distortion of reality. Hamas is an organized paramilitary of a semi-autonomous regino, that has spent twenty years digging a vast tunnel network and hiding weapons and ammunition in civilian homes. It is engaged in daily attacks against the IDF in Gaza, as they themselves show by posting videos of their firefights and attacks against the IDF. Hundreds of Israeli soldiers have died in these battles. That is, by any measure, a war.
  - racional 2y ago
    Yes, one notices there's been lots of shooting and bombing going on. The question is whether the current Israeli government rationally believes it will improve its overall security position in conducting the operation in the way it is doing (the usual intended outcome of a "war"). Or whether it has other goals in mind. As its numerous (quite nauseating) statements about the long-term fate it in has in mind for both the territory in question and the "animals" who inhabit it consistently indicate: https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/security-aviation/2024-07-08/ty-article-static/.premium/israel-seized-26-of-gaza-now-jewish-settlers-see-their-chance/00000190-77cd-d705-a7f5-fffffcbc0000 https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/security-aviation/2024-0... It has long since abandoned any pretense of freeing the hostages as a primary goal, in any case.
    - edanm 2y ago
      > The question is whether the current Israeli government rationally believes it will improve its overall security position in conducting the operation in the way it is doing (the usual intended outcome of a "war"). That's a fair question and criticism. I am one of the many Israelis furious at the government for exactly this reason - we believe Netanyahu, in particular, cares more about his own political survival, than about the actual security of Israel. And while I do think the current war is in some ways making Israel more secure (by weakening Hamas), it's also weakening Israel in some ways, and that's not even getting into the question of whether it's worth it "morally" speaking at this point (in my estimation, no). It's still a war though. And let me push back and say that if you think most wars are fought to purely to improve security and not for other reasons, including political reasons, you're very mistaken. > Or whether it has other goals in mind. As its numerous (quite nauseating) statements about the long-term fate it in has in mind for both the territory in question and the "animals" who inhabit it consistently indicate: For sure some extremist Israelis have these other goals. They are luckily a small minority of Israelis, but they unfortunately wield outsized political power because the actual #1 goal of Netanyahu is just to remain in power, and they help him do that. It is not the goal of the government nor of the majority of Israelis, who oppose this. Also, while there have certainly been bad statements made towards Palestinians, especially in the aftermath of October 7th, it's not like any Israelis routinely go around calling Palestinians "animals", despite your implying it. Look, your criticisms of the government are right IMO, and are shared by many Israelis, hence the numerous protests and calls for Netanyahu to resign. That said, none of that means that your initial statement was correct; this is a war, not a massacre. The IDF isn't going around targeting Palestinian civilians, at least not in general (I'm sure many individual cases of wrongdoing have happened, sad to say). The IDF is targeting militants, and engaging in daily fights with militants, in which civilians get hurt, for many reasons, but this situation isn't very different than many other battles that have taken place in urban territory. It's terrible, and maybe the war is not justified at this point (and you might think it was never justified, though I disagree with that). But it is a war, and saying otherwise is both wrong, and will make almost anyone on the "other side" of this issue refuse to engage with you.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

axxto 2y ago

> Why did you put quotes around "war"? It may be other things I think you answered yourself right there

racional 2y ago

[flagged]

nh23423fefe 2y ago
this sophistry is why i hate politics on HN.
- anigbrowl 2y ago
  But it matters. Hamas are non-state actors; if the conflict is legally characterized by Israel as a war, then prisoners have POW rights. Nobody is entirely sure at this point exactly what Israel's legal position is, which is going to have complex ramifications given that Israeli officials have already been charged by the ICC. https://lieber.westpoint.edu/israels-declaration-war-hamas-modern-invocation-recognized-belligerency/ https://lieber.westpoint.edu/israels-declaration-war-hamas-m...
  - readthenotes1 2y ago
    Thanks for that!
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- racional 2y ago
  The sophistry resides in the gap between the current government's stated reasons for conducting the operation in the way that it has -- and its actual, inner reasons. I am but the messenger.
- bhouston 2y ago
  The population of Gaza is actually the concentration of the descendants the former non Jewish population of nearby communities in Israel who were driven out during the Nabka. Many in Israel are calling this war Nakba 2. Here is some quote from Israelis in this regards: https://thehill.com/opinion/international/4313276-israel-is-threatening-a-second-nakba-but-its-already-happening/ https://thehill.com/opinion/international/4313276-israel-is-... There are also policy papers to this effect that leaked from Israel: https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/israel-gaza-palestinians-concept-paper-1.7015576 https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/israel-gaza-palestinians-conce... So this fear is an outcome some are advocating for but all world leaders are strongly opposed.
edanm 2y ago
This is absolutely not true. Whatever else you many think of what's happening, this is just a distortion of reality. Hamas is an organized paramilitary of a semi-autonomous regino, that has spent twenty years digging a vast tunnel network and hiding weapons and ammunition in civilian homes. It is engaged in daily attacks against the IDF in Gaza, as they themselves show by posting videos of their firefights and attacks against the IDF. Hundreds of Israeli soldiers have died in these battles. That is, by any measure, a war.
- racional 2y ago
  Yes, one notices there's been lots of shooting and bombing going on. The question is whether the current Israeli government rationally believes it will improve its overall security position in conducting the operation in the way it is doing (the usual intended outcome of a "war"). Or whether it has other goals in mind. As its numerous (quite nauseating) statements about the long-term fate it in has in mind for both the territory in question and the "animals" who inhabit it consistently indicate: https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/security-aviation/2024-07-08/ty-article-static/.premium/israel-seized-26-of-gaza-now-jewish-settlers-see-their-chance/00000190-77cd-d705-a7f5-fffffcbc0000 https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/security-aviation/2024-0... It has long since abandoned any pretense of freeing the hostages as a primary goal, in any case.
  - edanm 2y ago
    > The question is whether the current Israeli government rationally believes it will improve its overall security position in conducting the operation in the way it is doing (the usual intended outcome of a "war"). That's a fair question and criticism. I am one of the many Israelis furious at the government for exactly this reason - we believe Netanyahu, in particular, cares more about his own political survival, than about the actual security of Israel. And while I do think the current war is in some ways making Israel more secure (by weakening Hamas), it's also weakening Israel in some ways, and that's not even getting into the question of whether it's worth it "morally" speaking at this point (in my estimation, no). It's still a war though. And let me push back and say that if you think most wars are fought to purely to improve security and not for other reasons, including political reasons, you're very mistaken. > Or whether it has other goals in mind. As its numerous (quite nauseating) statements about the long-term fate it in has in mind for both the territory in question and the "animals" who inhabit it consistently indicate: For sure some extremist Israelis have these other goals. They are luckily a small minority of Israelis, but they unfortunately wield outsized political power because the actual #1 goal of Netanyahu is just to remain in power, and they help him do that. It is not the goal of the government nor of the majority of Israelis, who oppose this. Also, while there have certainly been bad statements made towards Palestinians, especially in the aftermath of October 7th, it's not like any Israelis routinely go around calling Palestinians "animals", despite your implying it. Look, your criticisms of the government are right IMO, and are shared by many Israelis, hence the numerous protests and calls for Netanyahu to resign. That said, none of that means that your initial statement was correct; this is a war, not a massacre. The IDF isn't going around targeting Palestinian civilians, at least not in general (I'm sure many individual cases of wrongdoing have happened, sad to say). The IDF is targeting militants, and engaging in daily fights with militants, in which civilians get hurt, for many reasons, but this situation isn't very different than many other battles that have taken place in urban territory. It's terrible, and maybe the war is not justified at this point (and you might think it was never justified, though I disagree with that). But it is a war, and saying otherwise is both wrong, and will make almost anyone on the "other side" of this issue refuse to engage with you.