4 ms·

What are most people doing with the iPad that they were being held back by the M3 chip in order for the M4 to be such a game changer for them?

ben_w 2y ago
All the things in the press release. AI inference. Editing, not merely watching, video. Ditto audio. Gets more done before the battery runs out. I cannot emphasise strongly enough how niche "compile the Linux kernel" is: to most people, once you've explained what those words mean, this is as mad as saying you don't like a Tesla because you recreationally make your own batteries and Tesla cars don't have a warranty-not-void method to let you just stick those in.
- qwytw 2y ago
  > I cannot emphasise strongly enough how niche "compile the Linux kernel" You can replace that with compile pretty much any software in general or do any real software development on it which isn't even remotely niche...
  - ben_w 2y ago
    I think that even software development in general is pretty niche; about 29 million of us worldwide, putting us significantly behind sex workers (40 million or so), which I get the impression most regard as (at the very least) an unusual profession? I want to say it's also way behind the number of YouTube channels, but I can't find a citation for the 3rd party claim of "114 million" active channels, though obviously most are not professionals and there's not a 1-1 requirement between channels and people.
    - qwytw 2y ago
      I doubt there are more professional video editors than software developers (or people working in related areas/fields). Even if we focus on video editing the apps available on the iPad and they are crippled by having very low amounts of memory which also makes "professional" usage rather difficult. The iPad Pro is mainly a luxury product for people who just want the "best" iPad and don't really care about the cost. > 114 million" active channels You should be comparing this to the number of active Github accounts or something like that which seems to be about the same.
- Rinzler89 2y ago
  So linux kernel compiling is niche but not editing videos and audio on the iPad? (source, have friends making money in the audio and video industry and none of them use iPads professionally for the M4 to matter, they all use MacBooks or Mac Studios even though they tired iPad pros) And you haven't answered my question. For video and audio editing, were the M3 IPads being held back compared to M4 for it to unlock new possibilities that couldn't have been done before and convince new users to switch to iPads?
  - ben_w 2y ago
    > So linux kernel compiling is niche but not editing videos and audio on the iPad? Correct. How many million youtube channels are there, and how exactly do you think that stuff gets made? Magic? New chip aimed at them, to make their work lives better. > And you haven't answered my question Yes I have. So have others who have replied to you. Performance. > were the M3 IPads being held back Disingenuous. "Held back" implies Apple could have made M4s a year sooner.
    - Rinzler89 2y ago
      >How many million youtube channels are there, and how exactly do you think that stuff gets made? Magic? Since you asked, they're using Macs and PCs mostly, sometimes Linux too. Rarely iPads though. That's more of a strawmen your building here. And I'm bringing in arguments that X86 and ARM improvements are more important that the M4 chips, because they power the world innovations, and you're bring up editing YouTube videos on iPads as an argument for why the M4 is such a big deal. I rest my case. >Disingenuous. "Held back" implies Apple could have made M4s a year sooner. I never said or meant such a thing, you're just making up stuff up at this point to stoke the fire and that's why I'll end the conversation with you here.
      - ben_w 2y ago
        > Using Macs and PCs mostly, sometimes Linux too. Rarely iPads. That's more of a strawmen your building here. You're arguing as if everyone changes production mode in one go when new hardware arrives. This chip was only released 50 days ago. Your example of "power the world innovations" included "compile Linux kernel" and "play the latest Steam/GOG games". YouTube is more valuable to the world than endlessly recompiling the Linux kernel. Let me rephrase via metaphorical narrative: -- "This internal combustion engine is very good, isn't it. I don't know why people keep saying they're a dead-end." "That's kind of the problem. The world's most powerful engine is put in the world's most expensive and thinnest carriage, lol. Was the previous horse-drawn carriage holding anyone back? Can't use car exhaust as manure!" "Obviously it held people back, just look at all the things horseless carriages let people do faster, how the delivery of goods has been improved. And honestly, most people have moved on from organic manure." "What, manure is niche compared to trucks?" "Very much so. I mean, how do you think we get all the stuff in our shops?" "But most of the stuff is delivered by horses! And also, you're talking about trivial things like 'shopping', when horses power important things like 'cavalry'. I rest my case." -- > I never said or meant such a thing, you're just making up stuff up at this point to stoke the fire and that's why I'll end the conversation with you here. I copy-pasted from your own previous comment, and at the time of writing this comment, the words "were the M3 IPads being held back" are still present. I cannot see how they could mean something else. Just in case you edit that comment (you've edited a few others, that's fine, I do that too), here's the whole paragraph: > And you haven't answered my question. For video and audio editing, were the M3 IPads being held back compared to M4 for it to unlock new possibilities that couldn't have been done before and convince new users to switch to iPads?
dagmx 2y ago
There was no M3 iPad so the question is incorrect. But if you’re talking compared to the M2, it has a number of updates 1. Significant performance and efficiency gains 2. New GPU with raytracing and mesh shading , and much higher performance. 3. AV1 decode 4. New display controllers required for the new tandem OLED 5. Huge upgrade to the neural engine I’m sure I’m missing stuff, but the M4 iPad Pro is a legitimate step up from the M2 for capabilities. Unless you fall in the camp of it being just a media consumption device
- Rinzler89 2y ago
  Sure, those are nice improvements, no question about it, but none of those change the iPad fundaments or unlock new possibilities for it, which is that it wasn't previously compute limited but limited by iPad OS. It's also not just my opinion but almost all users who reviewed the M4 iPad Pro, like MKBHD, calling it a overpriced Netflix machine.
  - dagmx 2y ago
    I mean, if your question is “what new capabilities did it unlock?” then doesn’t that apply to the whole CPU market? Did any of the stuff you mentioned you do has fundamentally changed in desktop in the last decade +. People like faster and snappier things. Along with that the new hardware unlocks the use of tandem oleds which is a big change for HDR creation and color accuracy. They go hand in hand. A lot of people create on iPads. I used to work in film and almost all my concept art friends have shifted over to iPad. A lot of my on set friends use it for on set management of content, visualization and rushes. The reviewers you mentioned don’t use the device that way. Would I similarly be right in taking their opinion about how niche it is to run Linux? Like this argument you’re proposing just boils down to “it doesn’t solve my needs and therefore I can’t imagine it solving other people’s needs”
    - Rinzler89 2y ago
      >Like this argument you’re proposing just boils down to “it doesn’t solve my needs and therefore I can’t imagine it solving other people’s needs” I never said that. I asked what needs does the M4 solve that the M3/2 couldn't? I asked that because people keep bring up the M4 in discussion, arguing against X86/Qualcomm chips, how they're slower than Apple's latest M4 chips, and for that I counteract with the fact that for a lot of cases the M4's extra performance over x86/Qualcomm is irelevant since X86/Qualcomm chips solve different and a lot more diverse problems that the highly restrictive and niche problems the iPad solves. And it's not me, because those are not my needs, I don't compile the linux kernel or doe CAD/CAE, or microbiology simulations but those to me (and to society and humanity) those are still more important than movie writers having a slightly faster iPad for drafts, since it's not like that was the reasons most movies suck nowadays.
gessha 2y ago
It’s not a game changer, never meant to be. Apple updates the hardware, shows you the possibilities and charges you an arm and a leg for it. What you do with it is your own business * Another thing is you’re comparing apples to oranges. iPads aren’t meant to be used in that way and if you want to do it anyway you have to hack your way there. You should be perfectly capable of compiling the Linux kernel on their more general purpose machine - the Mac. * within the limitations of the iPad AppStore
- Rinzler89 2y ago
  > iPads aren’t meant to be used in that way Correct, and if they're only meant to be used within the restrictive limitation of the AppStore then who cares about them, other than the small market of iPad OS AppStore users, most of which don't even used the full potential of the M3/M2 on their iPads let alone need the M4? Chips from Intel, AMD, NVidia, etc are big news because since they're generic compute chips, so they unlock new uses cases and research that can improve or even change the world, not just run IOS apps a bit faster. For example, do you think those Apple EEs are using iPads to design the M4 chips or X86/Mac computers?

ben_w 2y ago

All the things in the press release. AI inference. Editing, not merely watching, video. Ditto audio. Gets more done before the battery runs out. I cannot emphasise strongly enough how niche "compile the Linux kernel" is: to most people, once you've explained what those words mean, this is as mad as saying you don't like a Tesla because you recreationally make your own batteries and Tesla cars don't have a warranty-not-void method to let you just stick those in.

qwytw 2y ago
> I cannot emphasise strongly enough how niche "compile the Linux kernel" You can replace that with compile pretty much any software in general or do any real software development on it which isn't even remotely niche...
- ben_w 2y ago
  I think that even software development in general is pretty niche; about 29 million of us worldwide, putting us significantly behind sex workers (40 million or so), which I get the impression most regard as (at the very least) an unusual profession? I want to say it's also way behind the number of YouTube channels, but I can't find a citation for the 3rd party claim of "114 million" active channels, though obviously most are not professionals and there's not a 1-1 requirement between channels and people.
  - qwytw 2y ago
    I doubt there are more professional video editors than software developers (or people working in related areas/fields). Even if we focus on video editing the apps available on the iPad and they are crippled by having very low amounts of memory which also makes "professional" usage rather difficult. The iPad Pro is mainly a luxury product for people who just want the "best" iPad and don't really care about the cost. > 114 million" active channels You should be comparing this to the number of active Github accounts or something like that which seems to be about the same.
Rinzler89 2y ago
So linux kernel compiling is niche but not editing videos and audio on the iPad? (source, have friends making money in the audio and video industry and none of them use iPads professionally for the M4 to matter, they all use MacBooks or Mac Studios even though they tired iPad pros) And you haven't answered my question. For video and audio editing, were the M3 IPads being held back compared to M4 for it to unlock new possibilities that couldn't have been done before and convince new users to switch to iPads?
- ben_w 2y ago
  > So linux kernel compiling is niche but not editing videos and audio on the iPad? Correct. How many million youtube channels are there, and how exactly do you think that stuff gets made? Magic? New chip aimed at them, to make their work lives better. > And you haven't answered my question Yes I have. So have others who have replied to you. Performance. > were the M3 IPads being held back Disingenuous. "Held back" implies Apple could have made M4s a year sooner.
  - Rinzler89 2y ago
    >How many million youtube channels are there, and how exactly do you think that stuff gets made? Magic? Since you asked, they're using Macs and PCs mostly, sometimes Linux too. Rarely iPads though. That's more of a strawmen your building here. And I'm bringing in arguments that X86 and ARM improvements are more important that the M4 chips, because they power the world innovations, and you're bring up editing YouTube videos on iPads as an argument for why the M4 is such a big deal. I rest my case. >Disingenuous. "Held back" implies Apple could have made M4s a year sooner. I never said or meant such a thing, you're just making up stuff up at this point to stoke the fire and that's why I'll end the conversation with you here.
    - ben_w 2y ago
      > Using Macs and PCs mostly, sometimes Linux too. Rarely iPads. That's more of a strawmen your building here. You're arguing as if everyone changes production mode in one go when new hardware arrives. This chip was only released 50 days ago. Your example of "power the world innovations" included "compile Linux kernel" and "play the latest Steam/GOG games". YouTube is more valuable to the world than endlessly recompiling the Linux kernel. Let me rephrase via metaphorical narrative: -- "This internal combustion engine is very good, isn't it. I don't know why people keep saying they're a dead-end." "That's kind of the problem. The world's most powerful engine is put in the world's most expensive and thinnest carriage, lol. Was the previous horse-drawn carriage holding anyone back? Can't use car exhaust as manure!" "Obviously it held people back, just look at all the things horseless carriages let people do faster, how the delivery of goods has been improved. And honestly, most people have moved on from organic manure." "What, manure is niche compared to trucks?" "Very much so. I mean, how do you think we get all the stuff in our shops?" "But most of the stuff is delivered by horses! And also, you're talking about trivial things like 'shopping', when horses power important things like 'cavalry'. I rest my case." -- > I never said or meant such a thing, you're just making up stuff up at this point to stoke the fire and that's why I'll end the conversation with you here. I copy-pasted from your own previous comment, and at the time of writing this comment, the words "were the M3 IPads being held back" are still present. I cannot see how they could mean something else. Just in case you edit that comment (you've edited a few others, that's fine, I do that too), here's the whole paragraph: > And you haven't answered my question. For video and audio editing, were the M3 IPads being held back compared to M4 for it to unlock new possibilities that couldn't have been done before and convince new users to switch to iPads?

dagmx 2y ago

There was no M3 iPad so the question is incorrect. But if you’re talking compared to the M2, it has a number of updates 1. Significant performance and efficiency gains 2. New GPU with raytracing and mesh shading , and much higher performance. 3. AV1 decode 4. New display controllers required for the new tandem OLED 5. Huge upgrade to the neural engine I’m sure I’m missing stuff, but the M4 iPad Pro is a legitimate step up from the M2 for capabilities. Unless you fall in the camp of it being just a media consumption device

Rinzler89 2y ago
Sure, those are nice improvements, no question about it, but none of those change the iPad fundaments or unlock new possibilities for it, which is that it wasn't previously compute limited but limited by iPad OS. It's also not just my opinion but almost all users who reviewed the M4 iPad Pro, like MKBHD, calling it a overpriced Netflix machine.
- dagmx 2y ago
  I mean, if your question is “what new capabilities did it unlock?” then doesn’t that apply to the whole CPU market? Did any of the stuff you mentioned you do has fundamentally changed in desktop in the last decade +. People like faster and snappier things. Along with that the new hardware unlocks the use of tandem oleds which is a big change for HDR creation and color accuracy. They go hand in hand. A lot of people create on iPads. I used to work in film and almost all my concept art friends have shifted over to iPad. A lot of my on set friends use it for on set management of content, visualization and rushes. The reviewers you mentioned don’t use the device that way. Would I similarly be right in taking their opinion about how niche it is to run Linux? Like this argument you’re proposing just boils down to “it doesn’t solve my needs and therefore I can’t imagine it solving other people’s needs”
  - Rinzler89 2y ago
    >Like this argument you’re proposing just boils down to “it doesn’t solve my needs and therefore I can’t imagine it solving other people’s needs” I never said that. I asked what needs does the M4 solve that the M3/2 couldn't? I asked that because people keep bring up the M4 in discussion, arguing against X86/Qualcomm chips, how they're slower than Apple's latest M4 chips, and for that I counteract with the fact that for a lot of cases the M4's extra performance over x86/Qualcomm is irelevant since X86/Qualcomm chips solve different and a lot more diverse problems that the highly restrictive and niche problems the iPad solves. And it's not me, because those are not my needs, I don't compile the linux kernel or doe CAD/CAE, or microbiology simulations but those to me (and to society and humanity) those are still more important than movie writers having a slightly faster iPad for drafts, since it's not like that was the reasons most movies suck nowadays.

gessha 2y ago

It’s not a game changer, never meant to be. Apple updates the hardware, shows you the possibilities and charges you an arm and a leg for it. What you do with it is your own business * Another thing is you’re comparing apples to oranges. iPads aren’t meant to be used in that way and if you want to do it anyway you have to hack your way there. You should be perfectly capable of compiling the Linux kernel on their more general purpose machine - the Mac. * within the limitations of the iPad AppStore

Rinzler89 2y ago
> iPads aren’t meant to be used in that way Correct, and if they're only meant to be used within the restrictive limitation of the AppStore then who cares about them, other than the small market of iPad OS AppStore users, most of which don't even used the full potential of the M3/M2 on their iPads let alone need the M4? Chips from Intel, AMD, NVidia, etc are big news because since they're generic compute chips, so they unlock new uses cases and research that can improve or even change the world, not just run IOS apps a bit faster. For example, do you think those Apple EEs are using iPads to design the M4 chips or X86/Mac computers?