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This stuff usually just feels like a rich people flex. "Yeah, we don't worry about this stuff you seem to worry about. But we also live in an ecologically prist

This stuff usually just feels like a rich people flex. "Yeah, we don't worry about this stuff you seem to worry about. But we also live in an ecologically pristine place with ultra-high living standards and extremely low crime rates and a very manageable population density." - Good for you. But not everyone can be born there or afford to live there. So taking any of this as general advice is somewhere between laughable and stupid.

beej71 2y ago
I grew up in the US in the 70s and we didn't have any of that. Parents had me walking to school at 5. Something else has changed.
bell-cot 2y ago
That seems to be the Guardian-standard PoV - the 1%, but not the 0.01%. Similar practices exist in many cultures. If they're trying to influence Britain, then comparing to Norway is probably far more effective than some more-distant culture.
- sigmoid10 2y ago
  Norway's population density is an order of magnitude lower than the UK's. If all Norwegians lived in London (and they could - their entire population would fit inside the city limits, not even using the metro area) they would probably behave differently as well.
  - bell-cot 2y ago
    History is quite clear about immigrant neighborhoods in large cities retaining many of the social practices of their homelands. I'm vaguely aware of stories about young children in huge Japanese (& maybe Chinese) cities having similar independence, and of the "Old Enough!" Japanese reality show...but perhaps other HNer's could speak to that.
    - 082349872349872 2y ago
      I know a couple of local families where the parents went to the US for school or work but came back when they wanted to start a family because doing so someplace where kids aren't expected to independently get around at 6 seemed suboptimal.
  - piva00 2y ago
    Dutch population density is double than the UK's, kids there grow up more similarly to Norwegian ones than British ones.
082349872349872 2y ago
It's not a rich people flex when the whole country is doing it. (in fact, IMX from last century's US, rich people there are more paranoid than poor about their offspring's ability to function as independent members of their society) High-trust societies pay off in ways that don't tend to show up if one's only measure is GDP.
- sigmoid10 2y ago
  Norway is special because the entire country is rich. Their poverty rate is two orders of magnitude lower than e.g. the UK's. Things only get complicated when you start to mix rich and poor people - as is the case in most places in the world.
  - 082349872349872 2y ago
    Their poverty rate (as with the UK's current one) is a choice. If Tories had been half as serious about "levelling up" as they'd claimed, we'd also see a lot less poverty in 2024 UK than there was in 2010.
    - sigmoid10 2y ago
      Only if you have a choice in where you are born. Almost a quarter of Norway's GDP stems from the sale of oil and gas. In the UK it's like 1-2%. Because of these sales, Norway owns the largest sovereign wealth fund in the world. The UK couldn't have something like that even if they wanted to.
      - 082349872349872 2y ago
        The UK is a rich* country, that once had an empire; London is still a financial capital. (and norway ranks below ireland and luxemburg for GDP/capita) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Financial_Centres_Index#GFCI_34_(September_2023) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Financial_Centres_Index... * recall: Brexit was sold on the premise that the UK would get even richer outside the EU.
r0ckarong 2y ago
> So taking any of this as general advice is somewhere between laughable and stupid. Sorry but you read an article in "The Guardian" about how to parent like one of the wealthiest and privileged nations in Europe and you take this as "general advice". THAT is laughable and stupid. Most of the stuff in this article that is touted as this utopian freedom for kids is what I strongly associate with poverty around the world. Taking yourself to and back from school? Taking care of yourself because there is nobody else to do it? Spending time outside because you don't want to stay home? Sounds more like every "black teenager in the projects" story I've ever seen on TV. Sure, it sucks harder for poor people. So rich people shouldn't give their kids the chance to grow up as real people and learn independence? If you can afford a golden cage, lock your kids up? I don't understand that reasoning.
- sigmoid10 2y ago
  It's not about locking your kids up, it's about not doing stupid shit. And what can be considered stupid vastly changes depending on where you live in the world. Curiously, as you apparently have discovered, if everyone is poor, then some aspects of children's lifes are very similar to when everyone is rich. A homogenous society works pretty well in that regard. But when you start mixing rich and poor people, you are asking for trouble. So if you need a real takeaway from all this, it should be that we need to stop the wealth gap from spreading. Not treating your kids like super rich or super poor societies do.

beej71 2y ago

I grew up in the US in the 70s and we didn't have any of that. Parents had me walking to school at 5. Something else has changed.

bell-cot 2y ago

That seems to be the Guardian-standard PoV - the 1%, but not the 0.01%. Similar practices exist in many cultures. If they're trying to influence Britain, then comparing to Norway is probably far more effective than some more-distant culture.

sigmoid10 2y ago
Norway's population density is an order of magnitude lower than the UK's. If all Norwegians lived in London (and they could - their entire population would fit inside the city limits, not even using the metro area) they would probably behave differently as well.
- bell-cot 2y ago
  History is quite clear about immigrant neighborhoods in large cities retaining many of the social practices of their homelands. I'm vaguely aware of stories about young children in huge Japanese (& maybe Chinese) cities having similar independence, and of the "Old Enough!" Japanese reality show...but perhaps other HNer's could speak to that.
  - 082349872349872 2y ago
    I know a couple of local families where the parents went to the US for school or work but came back when they wanted to start a family because doing so someplace where kids aren't expected to independently get around at 6 seemed suboptimal.
- piva00 2y ago
  Dutch population density is double than the UK's, kids there grow up more similarly to Norwegian ones than British ones.

082349872349872 2y ago

It's not a rich people flex when the whole country is doing it. (in fact, IMX from last century's US, rich people there are more paranoid than poor about their offspring's ability to function as independent members of their society) High-trust societies pay off in ways that don't tend to show up if one's only measure is GDP.

sigmoid10 2y ago
Norway is special because the entire country is rich. Their poverty rate is two orders of magnitude lower than e.g. the UK's. Things only get complicated when you start to mix rich and poor people - as is the case in most places in the world.
- 082349872349872 2y ago
  Their poverty rate (as with the UK's current one) is a choice. If Tories had been half as serious about "levelling up" as they'd claimed, we'd also see a lot less poverty in 2024 UK than there was in 2010.
  - sigmoid10 2y ago
    Only if you have a choice in where you are born. Almost a quarter of Norway's GDP stems from the sale of oil and gas. In the UK it's like 1-2%. Because of these sales, Norway owns the largest sovereign wealth fund in the world. The UK couldn't have something like that even if they wanted to.
    - 082349872349872 2y ago
      The UK is a rich* country, that once had an empire; London is still a financial capital. (and norway ranks below ireland and luxemburg for GDP/capita) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Financial_Centres_Index#GFCI_34_(September_2023) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Financial_Centres_Index... * recall: Brexit was sold on the premise that the UK would get even richer outside the EU.

r0ckarong 2y ago

> So taking any of this as general advice is somewhere between laughable and stupid. Sorry but you read an article in "The Guardian" about how to parent like one of the wealthiest and privileged nations in Europe and you take this as "general advice". THAT is laughable and stupid. Most of the stuff in this article that is touted as this utopian freedom for kids is what I strongly associate with poverty around the world. Taking yourself to and back from school? Taking care of yourself because there is nobody else to do it? Spending time outside because you don't want to stay home? Sounds more like every "black teenager in the projects" story I've ever seen on TV. Sure, it sucks harder for poor people. So rich people shouldn't give their kids the chance to grow up as real people and learn independence? If you can afford a golden cage, lock your kids up? I don't understand that reasoning.

sigmoid10 2y ago
It's not about locking your kids up, it's about not doing stupid shit. And what can be considered stupid vastly changes depending on where you live in the world. Curiously, as you apparently have discovered, if everyone is poor, then some aspects of children's lifes are very similar to when everyone is rich. A homogenous society works pretty well in that regard. But when you start mixing rich and poor people, you are asking for trouble. So if you need a real takeaway from all this, it should be that we need to stop the wealth gap from spreading. Not treating your kids like super rich or super poor societies do.