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This is the part that really confuses me. You only have to run a business --any business-- for a few quarters to understand the negative impact that taxation a

This is the part that really confuses me. You only have to run a business --any business-- for a few quarters to understand the negative impact that taxation and over-regulation can have on the decisions you make, the risks you take, your ability to compete and how quickly you can grow. You really don't need a study from Harvard to get data on this. If you don't get it because of a lack of business experience, go talk to your local high-school-educated baker, mechanic or gas-station owner for a quick round-down. The evidence is overwhelming. Yet, we keep dicking around and supporting policies, politicians and people who somehow think they can violate the laws of physics and make things better by shafting everyone with more taxes. When are we going to learn and act? When it is too late? I owned a manufacturing business for nearly a decade. We designed and assembled electronics, embedded systems, FPGA's, lots of code. Hell, we even had a full-blown CNC shop with the latest equipment. As an engineer it was fun to go to the office. As a business person, it was painful. Example: One day this guy from the County of Los Angeles Business Property Tax department shows up in our industrial area going from door to door. The guy comes into our office and informs us that he was there to confirm how much we owned in business property taxes. I told him that we leased the 10,000 square foot building. We didn't own it. He then says: "Do you own desks, computers, tools, machinery, fax machines, chairs...?". Sure. "Well, you have to pay the County of L.A. taxes on these and other items". The only thing that I could say to him was "You have to be fucking joking! I have to pay you taxes on my desks and chairs, forever? Why?" Think I am making this up? Here: http://lacountypropertytax.com/portal/contactus/ppa.aspx http://lacountypropertytax.com/portal/contactus/ppa.aspx Being in manufacturing during the last several years has been a very painful experience. The supply chain is royally fucked. A lot of what you have to source you just can't get in the US any more. More an more suppliers are closing their doors every day. It's painful, difficult and you are getting killed by product coming from China. I won't go into the details that led to my decision to abandon hardware/electronics manufacturing. I, ultimately, decided that it was a far better idea to transform into a software-only enterprise and move away from making real physical goods. Because what we made involved everything from electronics, FPGA's, embedded, web and workstation software it really wasn't too difficult to shed the hardware portion of things and stick to software. I pains me because I love making things, but we, in the US, have somehow managed to FUBAR our system to such an extent that people like me have to say "fuck it" and move on. If you continue voting for policies that promote higher taxation and regulation, more government involvement and government programs you are going to get exactly the country you are voting for: A third world mess with rats jumping ship faster than humans. Mark my words. Think about it. What cracks me up is that you guys are arguing percentages and technicalities. Coming from my side of the table reading this would be funny if it wasn't so tragic. Go make something. Then come back and re-read your comments to see what they sound like.

codehotter 14y ago
I do not know enough to disagree with you on your main point, but I do have a few nits. You really don't need a study from Harvard to get data on this. If you don't get it because of a lack of business experience, go talk to your local high-school-educated baker, mechanic or gas-station owner for a quick round-down. Talking to your local high-school-educated baker is not science. We confidently believe a great deal of things that are untrue, and getting it confirmed with science is valuable. In hindsight, it's usually easy to be unsurprised by a scientific result. Can you imagine possible circumstances that would lead you to confidently believe taxation and regulation to be the cause of many businesses' failure even if it were untrue? The evidence is overwhelming. Yet, we keep dicking around and supporting policies, politicians and people who somehow think they can violate the laws of physics and make things better by shafting everyone with more taxes. I would love to believe this, since that would be a good argument to have less taxes. However, as your only evidence, you offer an example of absurd property taxation on desks and chairs. Such taxes cost a business in legal, accounting, and administration fees, in addition to the tax itself, and it costs tax money to operate the government bureau to oversee all of this. All this looks to be a blatant example of government inefficiency. However, every country in the world, at least every democracy, suffers from such problems. At one point or another, the politicians have to trade political capital to push for the policies really important to them, their funders and their voter base, and less than ideal compromises do get made. I believe that taxation is inherently inefficient and I would like to see as little of it as possible. And I also believe that some functions of government are useful to society at large. A balance must be struck. This balance will include inefficiencies that come with running a political society. Given that a balance must be struck, it is possible that the optimal level of taxation would be higher than now. I do not know how to judge it - I have no basis for that. I would like to see the evidence that shows where that balance must lie. I find it otherwise unsurprising to see business owners arguing for lower corporate tax.
- Domenic_S 14y ago
  > Talking to your local high-school-educated baker is not science. We confidently believe a great deal of things that are untrue, and getting it confirmed with science is valuable. In hindsight, it's usually easy to be unsurprised by a scientific result. He's not talking about science per se, but the insane level of rules and regulations you've got to put up with as a business owner -- especially in California. In other words, my interpretation of the GP's remark is that you can get at least an order of magnitude measurement of the pain-in-the-ass/cost factor, which is likely several orders of magnitude higher than what you think it is if you haven't owned a business that has enough revenue to put you on the radar. The bias on HN is probably more towards software (where we can all 1099 each other) and not so much towards manufacturing (which is a major compliance pain). When you're dealing with manufacturing, things are different. You're dealing the EDD, FTB, INS and IRS (from an employee compliance standpoint), then you're also dealing with OSHA and the EPA and all their arcane rules and enforcers that hit you with $15k fines if you use dishsoap incorrectly. Then, on top of all of that you're paying a 35% tax rate. Honestly, I'm surprised manufacturing has lasted as long as it has in the US. > Given that a balance must be struck, it is possible that the optimal level of taxation would be higher than now. I do not know how to judge it - I have no basis for that. I would like to see the evidence that shows where that balance must lie. Well, you could read the article :) We have a control group (the US) and the test groups (Germany, China) are far outperforming us.

codehotter 14y ago

I do not know enough to disagree with you on your main point, but I do have a few nits. You really don't need a study from Harvard to get data on this. If you don't get it because of a lack of business experience, go talk to your local high-school-educated baker, mechanic or gas-station owner for a quick round-down. Talking to your local high-school-educated baker is not science. We confidently believe a great deal of things that are untrue, and getting it confirmed with science is valuable. In hindsight, it's usually easy to be unsurprised by a scientific result. Can you imagine possible circumstances that would lead you to confidently believe taxation and regulation to be the cause of many businesses' failure even if it were untrue? The evidence is overwhelming. Yet, we keep dicking around and supporting policies, politicians and people who somehow think they can violate the laws of physics and make things better by shafting everyone with more taxes. I would love to believe this, since that would be a good argument to have less taxes. However, as your only evidence, you offer an example of absurd property taxation on desks and chairs. Such taxes cost a business in legal, accounting, and administration fees, in addition to the tax itself, and it costs tax money to operate the government bureau to oversee all of this. All this looks to be a blatant example of government inefficiency. However, every country in the world, at least every democracy, suffers from such problems. At one point or another, the politicians have to trade political capital to push for the policies really important to them, their funders and their voter base, and less than ideal compromises do get made. I believe that taxation is inherently inefficient and I would like to see as little of it as possible. And I also believe that some functions of government are useful to society at large. A balance must be struck. This balance will include inefficiencies that come with running a political society. Given that a balance must be struck, it is possible that the optimal level of taxation would be higher than now. I do not know how to judge it - I have no basis for that. I would like to see the evidence that shows where that balance must lie. I find it otherwise unsurprising to see business owners arguing for lower corporate tax.

Domenic_S 14y ago
> Talking to your local high-school-educated baker is not science. We confidently believe a great deal of things that are untrue, and getting it confirmed with science is valuable. In hindsight, it's usually easy to be unsurprised by a scientific result. He's not talking about science per se, but the insane level of rules and regulations you've got to put up with as a business owner -- especially in California. In other words, my interpretation of the GP's remark is that you can get at least an order of magnitude measurement of the pain-in-the-ass/cost factor, which is likely several orders of magnitude higher than what you think it is if you haven't owned a business that has enough revenue to put you on the radar. The bias on HN is probably more towards software (where we can all 1099 each other) and not so much towards manufacturing (which is a major compliance pain). When you're dealing with manufacturing, things are different. You're dealing the EDD, FTB, INS and IRS (from an employee compliance standpoint), then you're also dealing with OSHA and the EPA and all their arcane rules and enforcers that hit you with $15k fines if you use dishsoap incorrectly. Then, on top of all of that you're paying a 35% tax rate. Honestly, I'm surprised manufacturing has lasted as long as it has in the US. > Given that a balance must be struck, it is possible that the optimal level of taxation would be higher than now. I do not know how to judge it - I have no basis for that. I would like to see the evidence that shows where that balance must lie. Well, you could read the article :) We have a control group (the US) and the test groups (Germany, China) are far outperforming us.