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Question for European workers: Do you feel that social services help close some of that gap in pay? Raising a kid in the USA has become massively expensive. Hea

by dexwiz 2y ago

Question for European workers: Do you feel that social services help close some of that gap in pay? Raising a kid in the USA has become massively expensive. Health care costs, education costs, child care costs means parents can easily spent 50-100k a year on children alone. My partner wants to move to the Netherlands, but it would mean a massive pay cut for me long term. Their argument is that children will be cheaper, but I’m dubious on if the offset will be enough.

j7ake 2y ago
If you want more than 2 kids it’s rarely feasible in USA, but not an issue for Europe. No kids, USA hands down. One kid, comparable. Two kids, Europe looks better but USA is still possible. Three kids, you need free childcare somewhere to make it work. Remember that it is 50 to 100k in after expenses, so at highest tax bracket you need to make almost double that to pay for childcare. Finally, work culture in Europe is way more relaxed and stable, so you won’t have to worry about missing out on your children’s lives because of work.
- rPlayer6554 2y ago
  May I ask what you're basing this on? Obviously cost of living in the US varies a lot per region.
  - j7ake 2y ago
    OP says it’s the regions where child care costs 50 to 100k, so I am basing it on that.
    - lotsoweiners 2y ago
      As someone who has paid for childcare for 12 years in the US and never got anywhere close to half of the lower end of that amount I would be very curious about which regions they are referring to. Maybe they are referring to 5+ young kids?
    - red-iron-pine 2y ago
      I used to pay around ~2500 a month for 2 kids in the greater DC Area (richest counties in the US). I'm sure that number has gone up over the last few years but I absolutely do not believe anyone is paying 100k for child care. Like maybe, maybe the highest-end of high end daycares around SF, NYC, DC, etc. would be clocking at at 60k, and for multiple kids.
      - j7ake 2y ago
        I can imagine 4k a month for daycare, plus 2k for part time nanny (kids get sick!), 1k for extra bedroom, 1k for other expenses like food, clothing, bigger car. That is 96k a year.
- lupire 2y ago
  Home is somewhere to get childcare.
- hamster77 2y ago
  Yet the US has higher birth rates
- linearrust 2y ago
  > If you want more than 2 kids it’s rarely feasible in USA What? Anyone can do so if they wanted. There are plenty of people with 3+ kids in america. > but not an issue for Europe. And yet much of europe has a lower fertility rate. > Remember that it is 50 to 100k in after expenses What are you spending 50 to 100k on?
  - j7ake 2y ago
    Anyone can do it. I am saying it is better in Europe to do it than in high cost of living areas of USA. OP says 50 to 100k, so probably they live in high cost of living area.
- RestlessMind 2y ago
  My personal experience - most of the USA (generally suburbs) is very cheap to have multiple kids. Houses are bigger. Cars are bigger. Schools are free. Food and clothes are cheap. Plenty of parks, libraries and sports facilities nearby.
- glimshe 2y ago
  As a parent in the US, I find these stereotypes kind of hilarious. I have many European friends here who say they won't go back to Europe (Germany, England, Belgium) because of the costs of owning a house and having a family. Software Engineer salaries range from middle to upper class in US terms. While it's not necessarily easy to have kids in the low end of the range, I'd say it's not too hard either and I know many people who do it (even in California). But hey, for those who think and keep repeating in public that the US is a crime-ridden wasteland where you have no healthcare, no work life-balance and can't have kids: just don't come here and the problem is solved. Interestingly, TFA is exactly about the European exodus... to Arab countries, of all places.
pornel 2y ago
For an European, it's really hard to compare the value of social services, especially healthcare. The US healthcare costs seem to be highly variable depending on person/provider/medical history, and the whole pricing model is incomprehensible. Even if I could get a real quote, I still couldn't know what quality of care I'm actually going to get. Over here we keep hearing horror stories like "I stubbed my toe, and the invoice for Tylenol has bankrupted my family", and it's hard to know what's the real likelihood of such problems. It's hard to put monetary value of having a peace of mind that I can call an ambulance any time anywhere, and I won't be fighting any stupid invoices. I never have to worry about some "out of network doctor", because there is no such thing. There are other things that are hard to judge. I have guaranteed paid holidays and sick days. People serving me in restaurants have a living(ish) wage without tips, and also have guaranteed sick days (it's absolutely disgusting to think people could be coming sick to work, especially in the food industry!). There are higher food standards, and there aren't subsidized processed corn derivatives added to everything. I have plenty of consumer protections (over here saying "I know my EU rights" in the Apple Store magically gets you an extra year of warranty). I can live in many cities that have competent public transport, and basic shops and amenities within walking or biking distance, with roads prioritizing pedestrian safety. I could earn more and buy a luxury car, but I can already take a train, and read or have a nap while it's "fully self-driving" to the destination, bypassing traffic.
hamilyon2 2y ago
I have a very unique experience. Without diving into details, French health care system welcomed and supported and provided very long, sophisticated and expensive care. I really mean a lot. All for unremarkable insurance (mutuelle) 100€ per month. Mandatory social insurance, basically my taxes, paid for bulk of it. High level of professionalism, high standard of care, very little red tape and no unreasonable waiting. Out of pocket it is usually close to zero.

by dexwiz 2y ago

j7ake 2y ago

If you want more than 2 kids it’s rarely feasible in USA, but not an issue for Europe. No kids, USA hands down. One kid, comparable. Two kids, Europe looks better but USA is still possible. Three kids, you need free childcare somewhere to make it work. Remember that it is 50 to 100k in after expenses, so at highest tax bracket you need to make almost double that to pay for childcare. Finally, work culture in Europe is way more relaxed and stable, so you won’t have to worry about missing out on your children’s lives because of work.

rPlayer6554 2y ago
May I ask what you're basing this on? Obviously cost of living in the US varies a lot per region.
- j7ake 2y ago
  OP says it’s the regions where child care costs 50 to 100k, so I am basing it on that.
  - lotsoweiners 2y ago
    As someone who has paid for childcare for 12 years in the US and never got anywhere close to half of the lower end of that amount I would be very curious about which regions they are referring to. Maybe they are referring to 5+ young kids?
  - red-iron-pine 2y ago
    I used to pay around ~2500 a month for 2 kids in the greater DC Area (richest counties in the US). I'm sure that number has gone up over the last few years but I absolutely do not believe anyone is paying 100k for child care. Like maybe, maybe the highest-end of high end daycares around SF, NYC, DC, etc. would be clocking at at 60k, and for multiple kids.
    - j7ake 2y ago
      I can imagine 4k a month for daycare, plus 2k for part time nanny (kids get sick!), 1k for extra bedroom, 1k for other expenses like food, clothing, bigger car. That is 96k a year.
lupire 2y ago
Home is somewhere to get childcare.
hamster77 2y ago
Yet the US has higher birth rates
linearrust 2y ago
> If you want more than 2 kids it’s rarely feasible in USA What? Anyone can do so if they wanted. There are plenty of people with 3+ kids in america. > but not an issue for Europe. And yet much of europe has a lower fertility rate. > Remember that it is 50 to 100k in after expenses What are you spending 50 to 100k on?
- j7ake 2y ago
  Anyone can do it. I am saying it is better in Europe to do it than in high cost of living areas of USA. OP says 50 to 100k, so probably they live in high cost of living area.
RestlessMind 2y ago
My personal experience - most of the USA (generally suburbs) is very cheap to have multiple kids. Houses are bigger. Cars are bigger. Schools are free. Food and clothes are cheap. Plenty of parks, libraries and sports facilities nearby.
glimshe 2y ago
As a parent in the US, I find these stereotypes kind of hilarious. I have many European friends here who say they won't go back to Europe (Germany, England, Belgium) because of the costs of owning a house and having a family. Software Engineer salaries range from middle to upper class in US terms. While it's not necessarily easy to have kids in the low end of the range, I'd say it's not too hard either and I know many people who do it (even in California). But hey, for those who think and keep repeating in public that the US is a crime-ridden wasteland where you have no healthcare, no work life-balance and can't have kids: just don't come here and the problem is solved. Interestingly, TFA is exactly about the European exodus... to Arab countries, of all places.

pornel 2y ago

For an European, it's really hard to compare the value of social services, especially healthcare. The US healthcare costs seem to be highly variable depending on person/provider/medical history, and the whole pricing model is incomprehensible. Even if I could get a real quote, I still couldn't know what quality of care I'm actually going to get. Over here we keep hearing horror stories like "I stubbed my toe, and the invoice for Tylenol has bankrupted my family", and it's hard to know what's the real likelihood of such problems. It's hard to put monetary value of having a peace of mind that I can call an ambulance any time anywhere, and I won't be fighting any stupid invoices. I never have to worry about some "out of network doctor", because there is no such thing. There are other things that are hard to judge. I have guaranteed paid holidays and sick days. People serving me in restaurants have a living(ish) wage without tips, and also have guaranteed sick days (it's absolutely disgusting to think people could be coming sick to work, especially in the food industry!). There are higher food standards, and there aren't subsidized processed corn derivatives added to everything. I have plenty of consumer protections (over here saying "I know my EU rights" in the Apple Store magically gets you an extra year of warranty). I can live in many cities that have competent public transport, and basic shops and amenities within walking or biking distance, with roads prioritizing pedestrian safety. I could earn more and buy a luxury car, but I can already take a train, and read or have a nap while it's "fully self-driving" to the destination, bypassing traffic.

hamilyon2 2y ago

I have a very unique experience. Without diving into details, French health care system welcomed and supported and provided very long, sophisticated and expensive care. I really mean a lot. All for unremarkable insurance (mutuelle) 100€ per month. Mandatory social insurance, basically my taxes, paid for bulk of it. High level of professionalism, high standard of care, very little red tape and no unreasonable waiting. Out of pocket it is usually close to zero.