10 ms·

If there's a field that's 80% women and 20% men, is setting a DEI target of 40% men preventing sexism? Or is it perpetrating sexism?

runako 2y ago
Nobody can manage anything with this little information. A KPI set at a particular value cannot tell why the KPI has that value. Thus without more information, your hypothetical is not productive. An illustration by way of example. In a field where other firms have a range of net profit margins of 35% - 45%, one firm sets their net profit target at 10%. Is that because they are not competitive? Another illustration by way of example. In a field where other firms have a range of revenue per employee of $200k - $300k, one firm has no RPE target at all and its revenue per employee is $15k. Is that worth examining?
- Manuel_D 2y ago
  > Nobody can manage anything with this little information. I can! Unless you have some reason to believe that one gender is superior at the job than the other, it should match the representation of the field. > In a field where other firms have a range of net profit margins of 35% - 45%, one firm sets their net profit target at 10%. Is that because they are not competitive? Net profit margin is not a protected class. Race and gender are.
  - runako 2y ago
    > it should match the representation of the field Why? You have not supported this at all. If the field is staffed by wildly bigoted hiring managers, why does your assertion follow? Separately, why would this be obviously best for the company? Does matching parity with the field somehow ensure the best quality or cost/performance? Does this still hold at firms that are smaller than the largest (say: under 5k engineers)? Why?
    - Manuel_D 2y ago
      If I'm hiring 20 people in a field that's 80% women and 20% men, why would I expect to hire more than 20% men? Unless I have some evidence to think that one gender is better on average than the other, then we'd expect a non-discriminatory hiring process to hire women and men in equal proportions relative to the field. If a firm is staffed by bigoted hiring managers that favor men, we'd actually expect closer to equal representation amongst those bigoted firms. Because they're bigoted against women and less likely to hire them, they end up with a more "equitable" workforce. If a firm in our hypothetical field is bigoted against women, and hires women at half the rate as men, then it'd actually end up with a representation of ~40% women and 60% men. It's closer to equitable because of its discriminatory policies. This is a great example of why equity isn't evidence of nondiscrimination, and gender disparity isn't evidence of discrimination. > Separately, why would this be obviously best for the company? Illegally discriminating against pregnant women benefits the company: maternity leave is expensive, and avoiding expecting women saves money. Does that make it a good thing? Remember, nondiscrimination is both morally right and the law of the land (in most liberal democracies, at least), even if you have reason to believe that increasing or decreasing the representation of certain groups is advantageous. > Does matching parity with the field somehow ensure the best quality or cost/performance? Hiring the best candidates ensures the best quality and cost to performance ratio. Unless you have some reason to believe that men are better than women, then matching parity of the field is a side-effect of hiring the best candidates. > Does this still hold at firms that are smaller than the largest (say: under 5k engineers)? Why? Sure, a small sample size is going to have more variance. A one-woman consulting firm is going to have 100% women employees. That's not evidence of discrimination. But nor is a one-man consulting firm that's 100% male. Smaller firms have a lower sample size and are naturally going to have larger variance due to smaller sample sizes. But it'll all average out.
redeeman 2y ago
it will probably be downvoted to hell, but it seems like there isnt many that argue the field of plumbing needs more women, more women laying down sewage pipes etc. I tried reaching out to some feminist organisations to make some campaigns for this, and they were 100% not interested. it seems the "increase female %" only covers jobs that are super cleanly in office spaces
- rty32 2y ago
  I understand your sentiment. In theory there is no difference between a plumber or construction worker vs a CEO when it comes to DEI. However, in the real world, a female CEO or President is much more likely to inspire girls to work towards those roles, compared to a model female plumber. They call it "glass ceiling" not "glass floor" for a reason. Those feminist organizations are definitely hypocritical, no question about that. That does not necessarily mean they are doing anything "wrong", according to how the world runs. I wouldn't blame them for not doing anything. All that said, I think you bring up a valid point that people almost never talk about. But that's as much as it's worth.
  - redeeman 2y ago
    if broadening female involvement in the upper levels is good, it makes no sense that it isnt also in the "lower levels" (though I would say its not proper to describe plumbing as a lowlevel job). The goal is NOT to "inspire girls", the goal is to make the job sector reflect the population, no? for feminists it seems like only the nice cushy office jobs needs to reflect the population, not the dirty labour
    - em-bee 2y ago
      the goal is to remove barriers. reflecting the population implies that every job should have 50/50 gender parity. i don't think that should be a goal unless there is a benefit, such as in school where children need both male and female role models. the problem is to identify what the barriers are and how to actually get rid of them. lack of inspiration can be a barrier.

runako 2y ago

Nobody can manage anything with this little information. A KPI set at a particular value cannot tell why the KPI has that value. Thus without more information, your hypothetical is not productive. An illustration by way of example. In a field where other firms have a range of net profit margins of 35% - 45%, one firm sets their net profit target at 10%. Is that because they are not competitive? Another illustration by way of example. In a field where other firms have a range of revenue per employee of $200k - $300k, one firm has no RPE target at all and its revenue per employee is $15k. Is that worth examining?

Manuel_D 2y ago
> Nobody can manage anything with this little information. I can! Unless you have some reason to believe that one gender is superior at the job than the other, it should match the representation of the field. > In a field where other firms have a range of net profit margins of 35% - 45%, one firm sets their net profit target at 10%. Is that because they are not competitive? Net profit margin is not a protected class. Race and gender are.
- runako 2y ago
  > it should match the representation of the field Why? You have not supported this at all. If the field is staffed by wildly bigoted hiring managers, why does your assertion follow? Separately, why would this be obviously best for the company? Does matching parity with the field somehow ensure the best quality or cost/performance? Does this still hold at firms that are smaller than the largest (say: under 5k engineers)? Why?
  - Manuel_D 2y ago
    If I'm hiring 20 people in a field that's 80% women and 20% men, why would I expect to hire more than 20% men? Unless I have some evidence to think that one gender is better on average than the other, then we'd expect a non-discriminatory hiring process to hire women and men in equal proportions relative to the field. If a firm is staffed by bigoted hiring managers that favor men, we'd actually expect closer to equal representation amongst those bigoted firms. Because they're bigoted against women and less likely to hire them, they end up with a more "equitable" workforce. If a firm in our hypothetical field is bigoted against women, and hires women at half the rate as men, then it'd actually end up with a representation of ~40% women and 60% men. It's closer to equitable because of its discriminatory policies. This is a great example of why equity isn't evidence of nondiscrimination, and gender disparity isn't evidence of discrimination. > Separately, why would this be obviously best for the company? Illegally discriminating against pregnant women benefits the company: maternity leave is expensive, and avoiding expecting women saves money. Does that make it a good thing? Remember, nondiscrimination is both morally right and the law of the land (in most liberal democracies, at least), even if you have reason to believe that increasing or decreasing the representation of certain groups is advantageous. > Does matching parity with the field somehow ensure the best quality or cost/performance? Hiring the best candidates ensures the best quality and cost to performance ratio. Unless you have some reason to believe that men are better than women, then matching parity of the field is a side-effect of hiring the best candidates. > Does this still hold at firms that are smaller than the largest (say: under 5k engineers)? Why? Sure, a small sample size is going to have more variance. A one-woman consulting firm is going to have 100% women employees. That's not evidence of discrimination. But nor is a one-man consulting firm that's 100% male. Smaller firms have a lower sample size and are naturally going to have larger variance due to smaller sample sizes. But it'll all average out.

redeeman 2y ago

it will probably be downvoted to hell, but it seems like there isnt many that argue the field of plumbing needs more women, more women laying down sewage pipes etc. I tried reaching out to some feminist organisations to make some campaigns for this, and they were 100% not interested. it seems the "increase female %" only covers jobs that are super cleanly in office spaces

rty32 2y ago
I understand your sentiment. In theory there is no difference between a plumber or construction worker vs a CEO when it comes to DEI. However, in the real world, a female CEO or President is much more likely to inspire girls to work towards those roles, compared to a model female plumber. They call it "glass ceiling" not "glass floor" for a reason. Those feminist organizations are definitely hypocritical, no question about that. That does not necessarily mean they are doing anything "wrong", according to how the world runs. I wouldn't blame them for not doing anything. All that said, I think you bring up a valid point that people almost never talk about. But that's as much as it's worth.
- redeeman 2y ago
  if broadening female involvement in the upper levels is good, it makes no sense that it isnt also in the "lower levels" (though I would say its not proper to describe plumbing as a lowlevel job). The goal is NOT to "inspire girls", the goal is to make the job sector reflect the population, no? for feminists it seems like only the nice cushy office jobs needs to reflect the population, not the dirty labour
  - em-bee 2y ago
    the goal is to remove barriers. reflecting the population implies that every job should have 50/50 gender parity. i don't think that should be a goal unless there is a benefit, such as in school where children need both male and female role models. the problem is to identify what the barriers are and how to actually get rid of them. lack of inspiration can be a barrier.