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It seems in the US people don't go to the office as much as in Europe (like, US offices are a ghost town compared to EU offices) Any idea why that is? My guess

It seems in the US people don't go to the office as much as in Europe (like, US offices are a ghost town compared to EU offices) Any idea why that is? My guess is it's related to the commute (no good public transport in the US, ...), but if not, what's so much worse about US offices than EU offices that people prefer working isolated from home rather than have a more social life among coworkers? (I'm an introvert yet was still happy when offices reopened after covid and people were coming in. Having a coffee with a small group is great for introverts imho!) People have about as much families/kids/... in EU as US so that's not related to it I think

voidfunc 2y ago
Childcare is much more expensive and complicated in the US. Also we all hate each other. The US is a country of individualists, we'd much rather be on our than in a group unless it's for purely social reasons.
- Aurornis 2y ago
  > Also we all hate each other. The US is a country of individualists, we'd much rather be on our than in a group unless it's for purely social reasons. I worked for a multinational company that frequently flew people in to the US offices from abroad. Many people had difficulty adjusting to how friendly and social the United States was, on average. The US norms are much more social and friendly to than many countries. I’ve even worked with countries where smiling and laughing in a work situation is a faux pas. The US is an extremely friendly and social place by global standards.
  - voidfunc 2y ago
    Were friendly (mostly) but doesn't mean we don't hold contempt for our fellow Americans.
lazide 2y ago
Near as I can tell, the US is getting hit with massive manipulative propaganda BS, and a lot of people are burnt out and even having PTSD type reactions (See Complex PTSD) to other people because of it. And unlike other countries, a lot of (in person) social community was already weak, and is getting targeted with this propoganda on top of that. So a lot of folks in the US pretty much are staying home because otherwise it’s just too much to handle. And that puts them in the ‘terminally online’ risk category, which also makes it worse. Add on top of that shitty commutes, expensive daycare, comfortable homes (with AC and all the amenities), and it’s not hard to see why.
- g00gler 2y ago
  > Near as I can tell, the US is getting hit with massive manipulative propaganda BS, and a lot of people are burnt out and even having PTSD type reactions (See Complex PTSD) to other people because of it. Read any good articles about this phenomenon?
  - lazide 2y ago
    Near as I can tell, it is being very studiously avoided being talked about in the public media. Partially because it’s a bit complex. Partially because it is being done through the media and no one wants to take ownership for that. Partially because it’s too scary for people to actually address/consider. For example - if you’re in Ukraine, it’s hard to complain about the propaganda being abusive without looking like you’re supporting Russia, and complaining about Russian propaganda isn’t going to do anything except encourage them. It’s straightforward to make the connection if you’re familiar with a couple things though - Complex PTSD (symptoms) [https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/diseases/24881-cptsd-complex-ptsd https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/diseases/24881-cptsd-c...] Also, signs of emotional abuse which are easy to identify as rapidly increasing and more visible society wide trends [https://www.bhscp.org.uk/preventing-abuse-and-neglect/spotting-the-signs/signs-of-emotional-abuse/ https://www.bhscp.org.uk/preventing-abuse-and-neglect/spotti...]. And then add in [https://psychcentral.com/blog/recovering-narcissist/2017/08/11-signs-youre-the-victim-of-narcissistic-abuse#2 https://psychcentral.com/blog/recovering-narcissist/2017/08/...], which has been done across the board by all the political parties for a long time now (they are not the same, but they are both using similar tactics albeit in different ways), plus is commonly being done by many large corporations and advertisers. None of those links are unique or anything, there are dozens of good sources, including NIH papers saying the same thing. They were just the first ones I found that weren’t blogspam. Because the US has been in an ever escalating culture war for well over a decade now, and it’s solidly in ‘each side thinks it’s an existential threat’ mode and is policing it’s members like crazy. Partly because it is an existential crisis for Trump now, and he’s making it an existential crisis for everyone else in response. For example: - all the liberal women that were told over and over again (and gaslit like crazy) when raising concerns about birth control after the left screwed up and didn’t address the legal issues or maintain control of the Supreme Court when they could have. And liberal men who raise concerns about losing their jobs due to ‘positive discrimination’ are in the same boat. And everyone who is being hurt by inflation/having economic issues right now. - or all the conservatives that are under a constant fire hose of ‘the libs are coming to take your guns!’ panic while the right does nothing whatsoever to actually protect gun rights, and often passes even more gun control laws than the left. Same with conservative women trying to get sane abortion rules (like rape exemptions, emergency medical exemptions, endometriosis type medical exemptions, etc.). Or anyone that doesn’t want fear fear fear pumped down their throats constantly, or be pushed into a fraudster dictatorship. Among dozens of other issues. And the politicians are doing this because as long as they don’t actually solve the underlying problem, but look better than the alternative choice, they are guaranteed to have a lock on their constituents and can do what they want. And when the constituents start to waver, they just need to push more emotional buttons to keep them in line. But eventually after pushing those buttons too hard for too long, people start to break in real ways. Which is why it is actually emotional abuse, and causes things like CPTSD. Repeated violence can cause it, but also being repeatedly betrayed and lied to (with negative consequences for the victim) by those in positions of trust/authority, with no apparent way to escape or improve the situation. For a ‘ripped from the headlines’ example - just look at the recent Presidential debate, and the various back and forth things each side is doing to police it’s members while not addressing any of the actual real problems - for either candidate.
nottorp 2y ago
> that people prefer working isolated from home Not everyone is an annoying extrovert with no empathy :) You can go to the office, I'll stay home. On a more serious note, commutes are longer and costlier in the US. And I think quite a few people simply moved house to cheaper (and further away) areas and it's not worth it to move back to within commute distance.
- reginald78 2y ago
  They might have simply moved for their spouse's job as well and the previous commute isn't really possible anymore.
jollyllama 2y ago
At-will employment. There's more jobs and it's easier to get hired in the US due to at-will employment. EU employment laws mean that employees are better off picking their battles and WFH is a losing battle for them, since it can be documented and used as cause for termination, which in other situations more difficult in the EU.
- dbspin 2y ago
  I'd be curious if there are any statistics to back up that it's in general 'easier to get hired' in the USA. I've always assumed that 'at will employment' would make employees significantly more fearful of losing their jobs in the US.
  - jollyllama 2y ago
    > I've always assumed that 'at will employment' would make employees significantly more fearful of losing their jobs in the US. Would that still be true in the particular case of RTO mandates? I don't think so since "showing up to work" fits nicely into existing employment law on both sides of the pond and is easily documented by employers. The point being that in this particular case of RTO mandates, at-will employment affords you the advantage of being more easily hired elsewhere, whereas you don't lose any practical protection.
  - Aurornis 2y ago
    > I'd be curious if there are any statistics to back up that it's in general 'easier to get hired' in the USA. It’s common knowledge in the industry. When I worked for a company with EU offices, we always had to be much more careful about hiring and pay very close attention to laws in each country that could force our hands if we hired someone who didn’t work out. Meanwhile, back in the US we would often hire people who were junior, had non-traditional backgrounds, or who were borderline passing out interviews but showed potential. We knew we could take the risk and if it didn’t work out we didn’t have to be attached to the employee for an extended period of time. If you want statistics: You can look at compensation as a proxy. US tech companies have to offer significantly higher pay, even adjusting for cost of living, to hire anyone because the situation is stacked in favor of employees. European tech salaries are much lower because they can get away with lower pay. > I've always assumed that 'at will employment' would make employees significantly more fearful of losing their jobs in the US. That’s what the internet will focus on, but it goes both ways. Making it less risky to hire and fire employees makes companies more likely to hire more people quickly.
coldpie 2y ago
You'll get a lot of answers. I think our poorly designed cities and the garbage commute of driving a car is a big factor. I take the bus in to the office & I love my commute; I just read a book for 40 minutes. Poor suckers who have to drive have a much more miserable life. I wouldn't wish a car commute on my worst enemy. But I think, at least in the US, we have a much more combative relationship with our employers. Employers try to squeeze every last drop they can out of their workers with as little compensation as possible. Employers would rather spend $2*X on government lobbying to avoid having to pay their employees $X, just on principal; we select for & encourage sociopaths to run our companies. In return, employees rightly feel they should behave the same to their employers. "Employer wants me to spend 40 minutes in traffic? Nah, screw 'em, I'd rather sit home alone in my basement." Dunno. Seems bad to me, too, but I have a hard time blaming them.
darreninthenet 2y ago
I already have a great social life outside of work... I don't need or want one from my work colleagues who are likely to be much more transient than my "real" friends anyway
didgeoridoo 2y ago
On the margins, it’s probably a lot easier for an American to find a quiet spot in the house to work — US homes are on average about 50% larger than European ones, and often have a spare room to use as an office. While about the same proportion of Americans live in “cities”, a city in America can be the size of some European provinces thanks to sprawl. This means that even if you live and work in the same city, your commute can be well over an hour each way. This, combined with kids getting dismissed from school at 3pm and having nowhere to go but home thanks to unwalkable streets and a hyper-aggressive CPS essentially criminalizing leaving your 12 year old unsupervised for 15 minutes, makes going into the office a ridiculously inefficient proposition for families.
futureshock 2y ago
I believe that commute and the livability of cities is a big one. Most EU people I know find their commutes either pleasant or if they complain, it’s about 45 minutes. They don’t know what far even means. The city centers are fun, safe and vibrant. Also, most EU residences are comparatively tiny, usually flats. It’s just not that fun to stay home all the time in 60 sq meters with a tiny balcony and no central hvac. Then I think there is a big work culture angle. Europeans are low on bullshit and hustle culture. American workplaces are like worksona performance art, probably not too far off from the performative productivity of Japanese workplaces.
- ljf 2y ago
  I was interested in the figure regarding numbers of people in houses vs apartments/flats (quick google search): In the EU in 2021, 53 % of the population lived in a house, while 46 % lived in a flat (1 % lived in other accommodation, such as houseboats, vans etc.). As of 2023, about 65% of Americans live in detached houses, while 35% live in apartments. Around 40% of individuals living in poverty in the U.S. reside in apartments.
itronitron 2y ago
You know the stereotype of the very loud American tourist? When they are not on vacation they are in the office.
Izkata 2y ago
As far back as 2017, my office had around 150 seats for 200-250 people. They mitigated this by requiring people work from home one day a week back then, instead of getting a larger office. Didn't want to pay the cost. We've actually moved to a smaller office since then and are sticking with hybrid.

voidfunc 2y ago

Childcare is much more expensive and complicated in the US. Also we all hate each other. The US is a country of individualists, we'd much rather be on our than in a group unless it's for purely social reasons.

Aurornis 2y ago
> Also we all hate each other. The US is a country of individualists, we'd much rather be on our than in a group unless it's for purely social reasons. I worked for a multinational company that frequently flew people in to the US offices from abroad. Many people had difficulty adjusting to how friendly and social the United States was, on average. The US norms are much more social and friendly to than many countries. I’ve even worked with countries where smiling and laughing in a work situation is a faux pas. The US is an extremely friendly and social place by global standards.
- voidfunc 2y ago
  Were friendly (mostly) but doesn't mean we don't hold contempt for our fellow Americans.

lazide 2y ago

Near as I can tell, the US is getting hit with massive manipulative propaganda BS, and a lot of people are burnt out and even having PTSD type reactions (See Complex PTSD) to other people because of it. And unlike other countries, a lot of (in person) social community was already weak, and is getting targeted with this propoganda on top of that. So a lot of folks in the US pretty much are staying home because otherwise it’s just too much to handle. And that puts them in the ‘terminally online’ risk category, which also makes it worse. Add on top of that shitty commutes, expensive daycare, comfortable homes (with AC and all the amenities), and it’s not hard to see why.

g00gler 2y ago
> Near as I can tell, the US is getting hit with massive manipulative propaganda BS, and a lot of people are burnt out and even having PTSD type reactions (See Complex PTSD) to other people because of it. Read any good articles about this phenomenon?
- lazide 2y ago
  Near as I can tell, it is being very studiously avoided being talked about in the public media. Partially because it’s a bit complex. Partially because it is being done through the media and no one wants to take ownership for that. Partially because it’s too scary for people to actually address/consider. For example - if you’re in Ukraine, it’s hard to complain about the propaganda being abusive without looking like you’re supporting Russia, and complaining about Russian propaganda isn’t going to do anything except encourage them. It’s straightforward to make the connection if you’re familiar with a couple things though - Complex PTSD (symptoms) [https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/diseases/24881-cptsd-complex-ptsd https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/diseases/24881-cptsd-c...] Also, signs of emotional abuse which are easy to identify as rapidly increasing and more visible society wide trends [https://www.bhscp.org.uk/preventing-abuse-and-neglect/spotting-the-signs/signs-of-emotional-abuse/ https://www.bhscp.org.uk/preventing-abuse-and-neglect/spotti...]. And then add in [https://psychcentral.com/blog/recovering-narcissist/2017/08/11-signs-youre-the-victim-of-narcissistic-abuse#2 https://psychcentral.com/blog/recovering-narcissist/2017/08/...], which has been done across the board by all the political parties for a long time now (they are not the same, but they are both using similar tactics albeit in different ways), plus is commonly being done by many large corporations and advertisers. None of those links are unique or anything, there are dozens of good sources, including NIH papers saying the same thing. They were just the first ones I found that weren’t blogspam. Because the US has been in an ever escalating culture war for well over a decade now, and it’s solidly in ‘each side thinks it’s an existential threat’ mode and is policing it’s members like crazy. Partly because it is an existential crisis for Trump now, and he’s making it an existential crisis for everyone else in response. For example: - all the liberal women that were told over and over again (and gaslit like crazy) when raising concerns about birth control after the left screwed up and didn’t address the legal issues or maintain control of the Supreme Court when they could have. And liberal men who raise concerns about losing their jobs due to ‘positive discrimination’ are in the same boat. And everyone who is being hurt by inflation/having economic issues right now. - or all the conservatives that are under a constant fire hose of ‘the libs are coming to take your guns!’ panic while the right does nothing whatsoever to actually protect gun rights, and often passes even more gun control laws than the left. Same with conservative women trying to get sane abortion rules (like rape exemptions, emergency medical exemptions, endometriosis type medical exemptions, etc.). Or anyone that doesn’t want fear fear fear pumped down their throats constantly, or be pushed into a fraudster dictatorship. Among dozens of other issues. And the politicians are doing this because as long as they don’t actually solve the underlying problem, but look better than the alternative choice, they are guaranteed to have a lock on their constituents and can do what they want. And when the constituents start to waver, they just need to push more emotional buttons to keep them in line. But eventually after pushing those buttons too hard for too long, people start to break in real ways. Which is why it is actually emotional abuse, and causes things like CPTSD. Repeated violence can cause it, but also being repeatedly betrayed and lied to (with negative consequences for the victim) by those in positions of trust/authority, with no apparent way to escape or improve the situation. For a ‘ripped from the headlines’ example - just look at the recent Presidential debate, and the various back and forth things each side is doing to police it’s members while not addressing any of the actual real problems - for either candidate.

nottorp 2y ago

> that people prefer working isolated from home Not everyone is an annoying extrovert with no empathy :) You can go to the office, I'll stay home. On a more serious note, commutes are longer and costlier in the US. And I think quite a few people simply moved house to cheaper (and further away) areas and it's not worth it to move back to within commute distance.

reginald78 2y ago
They might have simply moved for their spouse's job as well and the previous commute isn't really possible anymore.

jollyllama 2y ago

At-will employment. There's more jobs and it's easier to get hired in the US due to at-will employment. EU employment laws mean that employees are better off picking their battles and WFH is a losing battle for them, since it can be documented and used as cause for termination, which in other situations more difficult in the EU.

dbspin 2y ago
I'd be curious if there are any statistics to back up that it's in general 'easier to get hired' in the USA. I've always assumed that 'at will employment' would make employees significantly more fearful of losing their jobs in the US.
- jollyllama 2y ago
  > I've always assumed that 'at will employment' would make employees significantly more fearful of losing their jobs in the US. Would that still be true in the particular case of RTO mandates? I don't think so since "showing up to work" fits nicely into existing employment law on both sides of the pond and is easily documented by employers. The point being that in this particular case of RTO mandates, at-will employment affords you the advantage of being more easily hired elsewhere, whereas you don't lose any practical protection.
- Aurornis 2y ago
  > I'd be curious if there are any statistics to back up that it's in general 'easier to get hired' in the USA. It’s common knowledge in the industry. When I worked for a company with EU offices, we always had to be much more careful about hiring and pay very close attention to laws in each country that could force our hands if we hired someone who didn’t work out. Meanwhile, back in the US we would often hire people who were junior, had non-traditional backgrounds, or who were borderline passing out interviews but showed potential. We knew we could take the risk and if it didn’t work out we didn’t have to be attached to the employee for an extended period of time. If you want statistics: You can look at compensation as a proxy. US tech companies have to offer significantly higher pay, even adjusting for cost of living, to hire anyone because the situation is stacked in favor of employees. European tech salaries are much lower because they can get away with lower pay. > I've always assumed that 'at will employment' would make employees significantly more fearful of losing their jobs in the US. That’s what the internet will focus on, but it goes both ways. Making it less risky to hire and fire employees makes companies more likely to hire more people quickly.

coldpie 2y ago

You'll get a lot of answers. I think our poorly designed cities and the garbage commute of driving a car is a big factor. I take the bus in to the office & I love my commute; I just read a book for 40 minutes. Poor suckers who have to drive have a much more miserable life. I wouldn't wish a car commute on my worst enemy. But I think, at least in the US, we have a much more combative relationship with our employers. Employers try to squeeze every last drop they can out of their workers with as little compensation as possible. Employers would rather spend $2*X on government lobbying to avoid having to pay their employees $X, just on principal; we select for & encourage sociopaths to run our companies. In return, employees rightly feel they should behave the same to their employers. "Employer wants me to spend 40 minutes in traffic? Nah, screw 'em, I'd rather sit home alone in my basement." Dunno. Seems bad to me, too, but I have a hard time blaming them.

darreninthenet 2y ago

I already have a great social life outside of work... I don't need or want one from my work colleagues who are likely to be much more transient than my "real" friends anyway

didgeoridoo 2y ago

On the margins, it’s probably a lot easier for an American to find a quiet spot in the house to work — US homes are on average about 50% larger than European ones, and often have a spare room to use as an office. While about the same proportion of Americans live in “cities”, a city in America can be the size of some European provinces thanks to sprawl. This means that even if you live and work in the same city, your commute can be well over an hour each way. This, combined with kids getting dismissed from school at 3pm and having nowhere to go but home thanks to unwalkable streets and a hyper-aggressive CPS essentially criminalizing leaving your 12 year old unsupervised for 15 minutes, makes going into the office a ridiculously inefficient proposition for families.

futureshock 2y ago

I believe that commute and the livability of cities is a big one. Most EU people I know find their commutes either pleasant or if they complain, it’s about 45 minutes. They don’t know what far even means. The city centers are fun, safe and vibrant. Also, most EU residences are comparatively tiny, usually flats. It’s just not that fun to stay home all the time in 60 sq meters with a tiny balcony and no central hvac. Then I think there is a big work culture angle. Europeans are low on bullshit and hustle culture. American workplaces are like worksona performance art, probably not too far off from the performative productivity of Japanese workplaces.

ljf 2y ago
I was interested in the figure regarding numbers of people in houses vs apartments/flats (quick google search): In the EU in 2021, 53 % of the population lived in a house, while 46 % lived in a flat (1 % lived in other accommodation, such as houseboats, vans etc.). As of 2023, about 65% of Americans live in detached houses, while 35% live in apartments. Around 40% of individuals living in poverty in the U.S. reside in apartments.

itronitron 2y ago

You know the stereotype of the very loud American tourist? When they are not on vacation they are in the office.

Izkata 2y ago

As far back as 2017, my office had around 150 seats for 200-250 people. They mitigated this by requiring people work from home one day a week back then, instead of getting a larger office. Didn't want to pay the cost. We've actually moved to a smaller office since then and are sticking with hybrid.