5 ms·

Swimming seems to be at least partly a cultural thing. In the Philippines, I'm regularly surprised by the number of people who say they can't swim. A handful of

by gexla 2y ago

Swimming seems to be at least partly a cultural thing. In the Philippines, I'm regularly surprised by the number of people who say they can't swim. A handful of videos is a small sample, but it seems to be a similar situation here where 5 out of the first 6 videos I watched were black kids. Being a lifeguard in a high risk area would be too stressful for me. I'm stressed just watching these videos. Big respect to watchful heroes saving the day for these kids.

karma_fountain 2y ago
I'm assuming your in the US when you talk about the black kids. How much do you think US segregation on racial lines in the 20th century has an impact on this?
- tarsinge 2y ago
  This is irrelevant for safety, the parent is talking about a child population potentially more at risk. A lifeguard's job is not sociology or history.
  - AstralStorm 2y ago
    A lifeguard being there at all, however, is one.
unregistereddev 2y ago
Black people being unable to swim is a trope in the United States, to the point of being a racist joke. There's some truth to it - black neighborhoods were less likely to have amenities like public pools, and black families were generally less able to afford paid swimming lessons for their children.
- ethagknight 2y ago
  Is it a trope, racist joke, or simply a statistic that needs to be known for the safety? According to CDC, child drowning victims are 3:1 blacK >>Every day, there are nearly 10 accidental drownings in the U.S., according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC). That’s 3,500 people every year who die in water. Within these numbers is a startling fact: the fatal-drowning rate of Black/African-American children is three times higher than white children.
  - dav 2y ago
    It can be all of the above.
  - QuarterReptile 2y ago
    >child drowning victims are 3:1 blacK Careful, your source says that the rate, not the number, is 3x. There are some stats where it is actually 3x the raw number, in which case you know you have found a really crazy disparity given different group sizes.
- defrost 2y ago
  A great many older US communities had public swimming pools, they were segregated and black children were kept out. Come the era of civil rights a good number of these pools were closed down and filled in rather than allow mixed race swimming. "White flight", redlining, and other economic pressures worked to keep new community pools coming into place in black neighbourhoods. https://www.buffalo.edu/ubnow/stories/2019/07/wolcott-segregated-pools.html https://www.buffalo.edu/ubnow/stories/2019/07/wolcott-segreg... > and black families were generally less able to afford paid swimming lessons for their children. Nearly everbody I know swims, black, white, etc. but I'm not sure very many had paid swimming lessons. With accessable pools and beaches the swimming part comes along with people being in the water.
- lupusreal 2y ago
  Many years ago when I was a teenager I worked as a swimming instructor. In my experience, most black kids were terrified of the water and getting them over that fear was vital for teaching them to swim. Some white kids were similarly terrified, but not as many. It was something like 8 in 10 vs 2 in 10. I don't have an explaination for it.
  - wruza 2y ago
    I can swim (to the nearest shore), but “getting over that fear” sounds absurd to me. You’re one breath, one cramp, one fishing net away from slow spasmatic death and you should ignore that for some reason. Yeah, sure. The explanation is easy, you stop moving correctly, you die. That is stressful. Swimming is free soloing in water, a somehow normalized dangerous activity. My words would sound funny if most of us didn’t know someone who drowned or almost drowned.
    - lupusreal 2y ago
      There's rational fear, which is more a sort of respect I think, which seems to be what you're talking about. But with young kids there is often a sort of phobia sort of fear where they refuse to get into the water, refuse to dunk their head under the water, or refuse to let go of the side of the pool even when somebody is holding them. We spent a lot of time trying to coax kids through this sort of fear. If their fear kept them away from water forever, it would serve them well enough I guess... the problem is, if you don't get kids swimming young then when they get older they will probably push through the fear on their own to fit in during social situation rather than in an instructional context where somebody is prepared to help them through the learning process safely. That's how you get teenagers jumping into pools during pool parties and immediately starting to drown.
  - hilbert42 2y ago
    "...most black kids were terrified of the water..." At what age did the training start? I reckon training must have started far too late (read my comment about me getting used to the water about the same time I learned to walk).
- nothercastle 2y ago
  In an effort to drive equity we have stopped building public pools in Washington state so all children can drown equally thereby fixing the racial disparity.
  - willsmith72 2y ago
    what's the background here? seems like a simple explanation for a complex phenomenon
    - nothercastle 2y ago
      The historical association with racism and redlining was one of the justifications for killing planned pool updates and construction in Seattle. As such Seattle has very limited public pool capacity and access.
      - animal_spirits 2y ago
        My anecdote is a few years ago the diving boards on the north side of Green Lake in Seattle were closed because the south side of the lake was "poorer" and couldn't maintain theirs, so to make things even they closed the north side diving boards. At least, this is what the lifeguards explained to me.
        nothercastle 2y ago
        Basically this. The easiest way to obtain equity is to just to match everyone to the lowest level of service. The schools are trying to do the same thing.
        willsmith72 2y ago
        How are the schools trying to do the same thing? Got some links?
        2y ago
- hilbert42 2y ago
  Racist joke or not, that's a terrible situation. I understand how the lack of amenities, public pools etc., would seriously disadvantage kids and would set back their leaning to swim. What is less clear is why families would actually need to pay for swimming lessons. When I was growing up in Australia swimming was so ubiquitous that what we kids didn't learn from our parents we almost picked up by osmosis — immersion with other kids in the water, etc. That's not to say kids weren't taught, they were but by that time most kids already had basic water skills, dog-paddling, treading water etc. Thus teaching was aimed at perfecting the correct stroke for the different swimming styles, the crawl, breaststroke, backstroke, sidestroke, etc. and it was taught at school. The thought of paying for swimming lessons would have been completely foreign to most of us (professional swimming teachers would have been reserved for those in competition such as the Olympics). Why isn't swimming a compulsory part of school sport? If it were then all kids would be taught at least the basics.
  - ikr678 2y ago
    Public pools are not as ubiquitous and evenly distributed in the US as they are in Australia. Australian pools are largely outdoors, have longer opening months (ie are more profitable) and dont have to be winterised like they would be in North America.
- BrandoElFollito 2y ago
  Isn't swimming taught in schools?
  - lcouturi 2y ago
    Only in some countries. It isn't taught in Canadian public schools, or at least not in my province (Québec). Education in Canada is mostly provincial, so it's possible other provinces have swimming lessons. I doubt it, though.
QuarterReptile 2y ago
The best filter, when I worked at a pretty low-wealth public pool, was when someone tried to wear a shirt into the pool. It was a filter that cut across socio-economic (couldn't afford swimming clothes), physical (out of shape), and personality (low confidence). We never let shirts into the pool, and then you made a mental note to watch for that person. Realistically, though, you spent much more time fishing out the confident , in-shape (or at least not fat) kids who bee-lined for the diving boards without any apparent plan for the time starting after they hit the water.
hilbert42 2y ago
"Swimming seems to be at least partly a cultural thing." I was brought up in Australia and I was taught to swim earlier than I can remember. My mother would take me to the beach grab hold of my swimming costume from behind and get me to dog-paddle around the age I learned to walk. This was not unusual when I was growing up, most of the kids at school were reasonably good swimmers by the age of eight. Also, early on we were taught to recognize rip currents and told to keep well away from them—they looked seductively harmless but are in fact very dangerous. When I was about seven we moved to a country town about 100 miles or so from the beach but it had a swimming pool. There too the kids were good swimmers, much better than I expected as they had grown up without access to a beach. That background leads me to my point: whenever we hear of someone being drowned at our beaches and rivers it is so often either a vising tourist or some migrant who was born overseas and did not learn to swim at an early age. For local people of my generation who were brought up as I was this cultural difference is striking obvious.
- seoulmetro 2y ago
  Pools are part of the culture in all parts of Australia. Even the outback. It's just so warm all the time that pools make sense everywhere. If there's pools everywhere it means people are scared (or excited) and teach their kids to swim.
  - ikr678 2y ago
    Part of the culture and part of the school curriculums in all states. Swimming classes, swimming as a sport and swim carnivals are offered at various grades throughout primary and secondary school.
    - seoulmetro 2y ago
      Yeah but did that come before people started being able to build pools? Probably? For the beach maybe, but people wouldn't have been learning to swim inland til pools were popular I reckon.

by gexla 2y ago

karma_fountain 2y ago

I'm assuming your in the US when you talk about the black kids. How much do you think US segregation on racial lines in the 20th century has an impact on this?

tarsinge 2y ago
This is irrelevant for safety, the parent is talking about a child population potentially more at risk. A lifeguard's job is not sociology or history.
- AstralStorm 2y ago
  A lifeguard being there at all, however, is one.

unregistereddev 2y ago

Black people being unable to swim is a trope in the United States, to the point of being a racist joke. There's some truth to it - black neighborhoods were less likely to have amenities like public pools, and black families were generally less able to afford paid swimming lessons for their children.

ethagknight 2y ago
Is it a trope, racist joke, or simply a statistic that needs to be known for the safety? According to CDC, child drowning victims are 3:1 blacK >>Every day, there are nearly 10 accidental drownings in the U.S., according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC). That’s 3,500 people every year who die in water. Within these numbers is a startling fact: the fatal-drowning rate of Black/African-American children is three times higher than white children.
- dav 2y ago
  It can be all of the above.
- QuarterReptile 2y ago
  >child drowning victims are 3:1 blacK Careful, your source says that the rate, not the number, is 3x. There are some stats where it is actually 3x the raw number, in which case you know you have found a really crazy disparity given different group sizes.
defrost 2y ago
A great many older US communities had public swimming pools, they were segregated and black children were kept out. Come the era of civil rights a good number of these pools were closed down and filled in rather than allow mixed race swimming. "White flight", redlining, and other economic pressures worked to keep new community pools coming into place in black neighbourhoods. https://www.buffalo.edu/ubnow/stories/2019/07/wolcott-segregated-pools.html https://www.buffalo.edu/ubnow/stories/2019/07/wolcott-segreg... > and black families were generally less able to afford paid swimming lessons for their children. Nearly everbody I know swims, black, white, etc. but I'm not sure very many had paid swimming lessons. With accessable pools and beaches the swimming part comes along with people being in the water.
lupusreal 2y ago
Many years ago when I was a teenager I worked as a swimming instructor. In my experience, most black kids were terrified of the water and getting them over that fear was vital for teaching them to swim. Some white kids were similarly terrified, but not as many. It was something like 8 in 10 vs 2 in 10. I don't have an explaination for it.
- wruza 2y ago
  I can swim (to the nearest shore), but “getting over that fear” sounds absurd to me. You’re one breath, one cramp, one fishing net away from slow spasmatic death and you should ignore that for some reason. Yeah, sure. The explanation is easy, you stop moving correctly, you die. That is stressful. Swimming is free soloing in water, a somehow normalized dangerous activity. My words would sound funny if most of us didn’t know someone who drowned or almost drowned.
  - lupusreal 2y ago
    There's rational fear, which is more a sort of respect I think, which seems to be what you're talking about. But with young kids there is often a sort of phobia sort of fear where they refuse to get into the water, refuse to dunk their head under the water, or refuse to let go of the side of the pool even when somebody is holding them. We spent a lot of time trying to coax kids through this sort of fear. If their fear kept them away from water forever, it would serve them well enough I guess... the problem is, if you don't get kids swimming young then when they get older they will probably push through the fear on their own to fit in during social situation rather than in an instructional context where somebody is prepared to help them through the learning process safely. That's how you get teenagers jumping into pools during pool parties and immediately starting to drown.
- hilbert42 2y ago
  "...most black kids were terrified of the water..." At what age did the training start? I reckon training must have started far too late (read my comment about me getting used to the water about the same time I learned to walk).
nothercastle 2y ago
In an effort to drive equity we have stopped building public pools in Washington state so all children can drown equally thereby fixing the racial disparity.
- willsmith72 2y ago
  what's the background here? seems like a simple explanation for a complex phenomenon
  - nothercastle 2y ago
    The historical association with racism and redlining was one of the justifications for killing planned pool updates and construction in Seattle. As such Seattle has very limited public pool capacity and access.
    - animal_spirits 2y ago
      My anecdote is a few years ago the diving boards on the north side of Green Lake in Seattle were closed because the south side of the lake was "poorer" and couldn't maintain theirs, so to make things even they closed the north side diving boards. At least, this is what the lifeguards explained to me.
      - nothercastle 2y ago
        Basically this. The easiest way to obtain equity is to just to match everyone to the lowest level of service. The schools are trying to do the same thing.
        willsmith72 2y ago
        How are the schools trying to do the same thing? Got some links?
        2y ago
hilbert42 2y ago
Racist joke or not, that's a terrible situation. I understand how the lack of amenities, public pools etc., would seriously disadvantage kids and would set back their leaning to swim. What is less clear is why families would actually need to pay for swimming lessons. When I was growing up in Australia swimming was so ubiquitous that what we kids didn't learn from our parents we almost picked up by osmosis — immersion with other kids in the water, etc. That's not to say kids weren't taught, they were but by that time most kids already had basic water skills, dog-paddling, treading water etc. Thus teaching was aimed at perfecting the correct stroke for the different swimming styles, the crawl, breaststroke, backstroke, sidestroke, etc. and it was taught at school. The thought of paying for swimming lessons would have been completely foreign to most of us (professional swimming teachers would have been reserved for those in competition such as the Olympics). Why isn't swimming a compulsory part of school sport? If it were then all kids would be taught at least the basics.
- ikr678 2y ago
  Public pools are not as ubiquitous and evenly distributed in the US as they are in Australia. Australian pools are largely outdoors, have longer opening months (ie are more profitable) and dont have to be winterised like they would be in North America.
BrandoElFollito 2y ago
Isn't swimming taught in schools?
- lcouturi 2y ago
  Only in some countries. It isn't taught in Canadian public schools, or at least not in my province (Québec). Education in Canada is mostly provincial, so it's possible other provinces have swimming lessons. I doubt it, though.

QuarterReptile 2y ago

The best filter, when I worked at a pretty low-wealth public pool, was when someone tried to wear a shirt into the pool. It was a filter that cut across socio-economic (couldn't afford swimming clothes), physical (out of shape), and personality (low confidence). We never let shirts into the pool, and then you made a mental note to watch for that person. Realistically, though, you spent much more time fishing out the confident , in-shape (or at least not fat) kids who bee-lined for the diving boards without any apparent plan for the time starting after they hit the water.

hilbert42 2y ago

"Swimming seems to be at least partly a cultural thing." I was brought up in Australia and I was taught to swim earlier than I can remember. My mother would take me to the beach grab hold of my swimming costume from behind and get me to dog-paddle around the age I learned to walk. This was not unusual when I was growing up, most of the kids at school were reasonably good swimmers by the age of eight. Also, early on we were taught to recognize rip currents and told to keep well away from them—they looked seductively harmless but are in fact very dangerous. When I was about seven we moved to a country town about 100 miles or so from the beach but it had a swimming pool. There too the kids were good swimmers, much better than I expected as they had grown up without access to a beach. That background leads me to my point: whenever we hear of someone being drowned at our beaches and rivers it is so often either a vising tourist or some migrant who was born overseas and did not learn to swim at an early age. For local people of my generation who were brought up as I was this cultural difference is striking obvious.

seoulmetro 2y ago
Pools are part of the culture in all parts of Australia. Even the outback. It's just so warm all the time that pools make sense everywhere. If there's pools everywhere it means people are scared (or excited) and teach their kids to swim.
- ikr678 2y ago
  Part of the culture and part of the school curriculums in all states. Swimming classes, swimming as a sport and swim carnivals are offered at various grades throughout primary and secondary school.
  - seoulmetro 2y ago
    Yeah but did that come before people started being able to build pools? Probably? For the beach maybe, but people wouldn't have been learning to swim inland til pools were popular I reckon.