5 ms·

It troubles me a tiny bit to see comments on HN like (paraphrased) "Members of [group that has different religious beliefs than me] are evil." I am not defend

by pud 14y ago

It troubles me a tiny bit to see comments on HN like (paraphrased) "Members of [group that has different religious beliefs than me] are evil." I am not defending religion or Scientology.

NathanKP 14y ago
I would day almost every religion has dirty secrets, because with power over people comes evil actions. Scientology in particular has a bad reputation of engaging in particularly dubious activity though, as even a cursory inspection of their history will reveal.
- tptacek 14y ago
  Oh, well then, to hell with the rule of law.
  - fleitz 14y ago
    Rule of law? That's a quaint pre-2001 POV.
  - jlgreco 14y ago
    What is legal and what is ethical do not have as much overlap as you appear to think.
    - masterzora 14y ago
      The ethical approach is subversion of the law less often than the internet appears to think.
      - jlgreco 14y ago
        I am merely to sum of all the politics of those on the internet far less often than you appear to think.
tptacek 14y ago
Very yes. It troubles me more than a tiny bit. What does this have to do with HN? We'd flag off posts about Scientology as irrelevant. So basically, this is at the top of the page as a celebration of hacking organizations nerds don't like. It's how we nerds do bullying. And I think Scientology is probably a criminal organization.
- drivingmenuts 14y ago
  I have to agree. This seems to fall outside of the general purview of HN, even at it's broadest. And I don't have any evidence that Scientology is "evil" nor do I have any interest in pursuing such knowledge.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
ma2rten 14y ago
Scientology is not regarded a religion everywhere. In Germany it is considered a cult instead and it is even on a government watchlist. As students we were warned about it in school. EDIT: I was just looking at Scientology's (English) Wikipedia page and came across this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Scientology_warning_leaflet.jpg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Scientology_warning_leafle... . I though it would illustrate my point. Those are three government-issued leaflets with the title "Protect Our Democracy". One is on organized crime, one on Islamic terrorism and one on Scientology.
- sidcool 14y ago
  In America here, it's a state recognized religion with a Church of their own. Hell, Tom Cruise is a Scientologist. That cult is a money hoarding organization. I wish this hack attack happened in America.
  - slurgfest 14y ago
    Name a major religion which is not (or does not contain) money hoarding organizations
  - drivingmenuts 14y ago
    Rescinding previous comment and dropping out of this argument. I don't have a dog in this hunt nor do I care to.
    - Karunamon 14y ago
      >Or are you operating on hearsay? Oh for pete's sake. Go read up on Lisa McPherson and Operation Snow White. There are plenty of legitimate and documented reasons to hate Scientology, not one of which is because they hoard money.
      - Karunamon 14y ago
        Aside: Let your comments stand and take your knocks. Deleting a comment after it's been responded to is weak.
lmkg 14y ago
Objections to Scientology are not (for the most part) based on their religious beliefs, but their practices and behaviors. They have a history of being aggressively litigious, similar to patent trolls[1], and have used frivolous lawsuits to harass critics into giving up the fight. There are also some indications that they're emotionally abusive to their members, and encourage them to cut off all contact to non-Scientologist friends and family. These allegations are difficult to substantiate, in part because the Church is so aggressive about quelling criticism. In general, the Intarwebs regard Scientology as an organization that invests substantial financial and legal resources in limiting free speech on the internet. This is generally unpopular, regardless of who is doing it. The Church's status as a religious institution is largely immaterial to this perception. [1] Very similar, actually. They claim copyright on their religious writings, and use that to sue people who release them.
- zzzeek 14y ago
  > There are also some indications that they're emotionally abusive to their members, and encourage them to cut off all contact to non-Scientologist friends and family. These allegations are difficult to substantiate, in part because the Church is so aggressive about quelling criticism. curious, why aren't the testimonials of ex-members adequate substantiation ? While it was extremely difficult to get access to information critical to Scientology prior to the late 1990s, there is a tremendous amount of critical information and ex-member testimonials available today. http://www.xenu.net/ http://www.xenu.net/, http://www.freedomofmind.com/Info/infoDet.php?id=230 http://www.freedomofmind.com/Info/infoDet.php?id=230, are good places to start.
- jontas 14y ago
  There is a free book online by an ex member called A Piece of Blue Sky. Once I started reading I couldn't stop.. it a very compelling story and it covers a lot of history in the broader sense (not limited to this specific member's experience). Definitely worth the read if this is something you are interested in: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Library/Shelf/atack/ http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Library/Shelf/atack/
  - 14y ago
Supermighty 14y ago
Fear and mistrust of Scientology has nothing to do with their beliefs. They are a secretive organization that seeks to protect itself at the expense of everyone else. They are the perpetrators of the largest infiltration of the US government [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Snow_White https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Snow_White]. And while their actions today may be legal they are nonetheless still dangerous.
richardw 14y ago
Here's a writeup from an ex-member, who was pretty high up in the org at one point and saw most of what can be seen, describing his experiences since having left. Sure, the whole organisation is unlikely to be "evil", but most religious sects gave up this stuff a while ago. Try to imagine any vaguely normal religion doing this. In a time when people give Google or Microsoft a hard time for being evil, this redefines the term. http://www.forum.exscn.net/showwiki.php?title=Gerry+Armstrong http://www.forum.exscn.net/showwiki.php?title=Gerry+Armstron...

by pud 14y ago

It troubles me a tiny bit to see comments on HN like (paraphrased) "Members of [group that has different religious beliefs than me] are evil." I am not defending religion or Scientology.

NathanKP 14y ago

I would day almost every religion has dirty secrets, because with power over people comes evil actions. Scientology in particular has a bad reputation of engaging in particularly dubious activity though, as even a cursory inspection of their history will reveal.

tptacek 14y ago
Oh, well then, to hell with the rule of law.
- fleitz 14y ago
  Rule of law? That's a quaint pre-2001 POV.
- jlgreco 14y ago
  What is legal and what is ethical do not have as much overlap as you appear to think.
  - masterzora 14y ago
    The ethical approach is subversion of the law less often than the internet appears to think.
    - jlgreco 14y ago
      I am merely to sum of all the politics of those on the internet far less often than you appear to think.

tptacek 14y ago

Very yes. It troubles me more than a tiny bit. What does this have to do with HN? We'd flag off posts about Scientology as irrelevant. So basically, this is at the top of the page as a celebration of hacking organizations nerds don't like. It's how we nerds do bullying. And I think Scientology is probably a criminal organization.

drivingmenuts 14y ago
I have to agree. This seems to fall outside of the general purview of HN, even at it's broadest. And I don't have any evidence that Scientology is "evil" nor do I have any interest in pursuing such knowledge.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]

ma2rten 14y ago

Scientology is not regarded a religion everywhere. In Germany it is considered a cult instead and it is even on a government watchlist. As students we were warned about it in school. EDIT: I was just looking at Scientology's (English) Wikipedia page and came across this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Scientology_warning_leaflet.jpg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Scientology_warning_leafle... . I though it would illustrate my point. Those are three government-issued leaflets with the title "Protect Our Democracy". One is on organized crime, one on Islamic terrorism and one on Scientology.

sidcool 14y ago
In America here, it's a state recognized religion with a Church of their own. Hell, Tom Cruise is a Scientologist. That cult is a money hoarding organization. I wish this hack attack happened in America.
- slurgfest 14y ago
  Name a major religion which is not (or does not contain) money hoarding organizations
- drivingmenuts 14y ago
  Rescinding previous comment and dropping out of this argument. I don't have a dog in this hunt nor do I care to.
  - Karunamon 14y ago
    >Or are you operating on hearsay? Oh for pete's sake. Go read up on Lisa McPherson and Operation Snow White. There are plenty of legitimate and documented reasons to hate Scientology, not one of which is because they hoard money.
    - Karunamon 14y ago
      Aside: Let your comments stand and take your knocks. Deleting a comment after it's been responded to is weak.

lmkg 14y ago

Objections to Scientology are not (for the most part) based on their religious beliefs, but their practices and behaviors. They have a history of being aggressively litigious, similar to patent trolls[1], and have used frivolous lawsuits to harass critics into giving up the fight. There are also some indications that they're emotionally abusive to their members, and encourage them to cut off all contact to non-Scientologist friends and family. These allegations are difficult to substantiate, in part because the Church is so aggressive about quelling criticism. In general, the Intarwebs regard Scientology as an organization that invests substantial financial and legal resources in limiting free speech on the internet. This is generally unpopular, regardless of who is doing it. The Church's status as a religious institution is largely immaterial to this perception. [1] Very similar, actually. They claim copyright on their religious writings, and use that to sue people who release them.

zzzeek 14y ago
> There are also some indications that they're emotionally abusive to their members, and encourage them to cut off all contact to non-Scientologist friends and family. These allegations are difficult to substantiate, in part because the Church is so aggressive about quelling criticism. curious, why aren't the testimonials of ex-members adequate substantiation ? While it was extremely difficult to get access to information critical to Scientology prior to the late 1990s, there is a tremendous amount of critical information and ex-member testimonials available today. http://www.xenu.net/ http://www.xenu.net/, http://www.freedomofmind.com/Info/infoDet.php?id=230 http://www.freedomofmind.com/Info/infoDet.php?id=230, are good places to start.
jontas 14y ago
There is a free book online by an ex member called A Piece of Blue Sky. Once I started reading I couldn't stop.. it a very compelling story and it covers a lot of history in the broader sense (not limited to this specific member's experience). Definitely worth the read if this is something you are interested in: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Library/Shelf/atack/ http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Library/Shelf/atack/
- 14y ago

Supermighty 14y ago

Fear and mistrust of Scientology has nothing to do with their beliefs. They are a secretive organization that seeks to protect itself at the expense of everyone else. They are the perpetrators of the largest infiltration of the US government [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Snow_White https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Snow_White]. And while their actions today may be legal they are nonetheless still dangerous.

richardw 14y ago

Here's a writeup from an ex-member, who was pretty high up in the org at one point and saw most of what can be seen, describing his experiences since having left. Sure, the whole organisation is unlikely to be "evil", but most religious sects gave up this stuff a while ago. Try to imagine any vaguely normal religion doing this. In a time when people give Google or Microsoft a hard time for being evil, this redefines the term. http://www.forum.exscn.net/showwiki.php?title=Gerry+Armstrong http://www.forum.exscn.net/showwiki.php?title=Gerry+Armstron...