10 ms·

SimSig: Railway Signalling Simulations

228 points by untilted 2y ago

cybrox 2y ago
This is really cool! For people who don't want to go full scale sim and prefer a bit of a lighter interpretation of working with signalling screens, I can recommend Rail Route (https://store.steampowered.com/app/1124180/Rail_Route/ https://store.steampowered.com/app/1124180/Rail_Route/).
- fragmede 2y ago
  For people that want a railway simulator that includes game mechanics to drive a lot of complexity, try Factorio.
  - 8372049 2y ago
    Or OpenTTD https://www.openttd.org https://www.openttd.org
    - mrguyorama 2y ago
      OpenTTD's default signaling system is mediocre. "Path signals" which are "recommended" and the only signal system not locked behind a settings change, will get you into trouble more often than not. You can only put a path signal somewhere where "it is safe for an arbitrary train to park here", which is a problem more often than not. If you are used to block signalling, as used in real trains, path signals will repeatedly surprise you in unfortunate ways. You have to basically deprogram everything you learned about signalling and even build rather different track layouts to use them. Add to that, platforms are not integrated into path signals in any useful way, so a train will sometimes refuse to advance to it's destination platform if it is a "Drive through" capable station if it cannot reserve a path well past it's desired endpoint. IMO block signals are much simpler to understand for simple use cases, even if it is hard to make complicated railways with them. I think for normal people picking up OpenTTD, they would be a better choice.
      - TylerE 2y ago
        Path signals are closer to how a modern signaling system operates. They absolutely can allocate multiple paths through the same block as long as the position of switches guarantees no conflicts.
    - loa_in_ 2y ago
      Especially a fork called JGR's patchpack, featuring programmable signals and so much more.
  - gsck 2y ago
    Pretty sure the developers of Factorio made a train game based around the train system in Factorio. Can't for the life of me remember its name but it looks rather good
    - chin7an 2y ago
      Is it Sweet Transit? The about section mentions that the developer was part of Factorio. Edit to add link - https://www.sweettransitgame.com/ https://www.sweettransitgame.com/
      - gsck 2y ago
        Yes, that's the one. Never played it, but from my understanding its effectively just the train system lifted out of Factorio with a game built around it.
      - Cthulhu_ 2y ago
        It even looks like the rail assets were lifted straight from Factorio. I mean if it's all above board it's fine - Factorio's train system is really good. That said, they're also giving it major updates/overhauls in the upcoming update, so this one would be falling behind if there's no good relationships between the two.
        TylerE 2y ago
        The mechanics or more or less entirely unlike factorio. It’s this really weird city sim / train game hybrid that is pretty crappy at both halves.
    - TylerE 2y ago
      He was one of the graphics contractors not a dev. It is not very good. The game design is just and, failing to be either a good train sim or an interesting strategy game. It basically flopped in early access.
wiz21c 2y ago
first paragraph on home page is really funny and alluring : "... How often has your train been delayed because of "signal failure" and you've wondered why trains can't be routed around the problem - or why it is even a problem in the first place? You'll soon see exactly why - with SimSig!" really resonates with my experience as a commuter
rwmj 2y ago
Memories of playing Heathrow Air Traffic Control (https://www.spectrumcomputing.co.uk/entry/2270/ZX-Spectrum/Heathrow_Air_Traffic_Control https://www.spectrumcomputing.co.uk/entry/2270/ZX-Spectrum/H...)
- 8372049 2y ago
  Nowadays you can do virtual ATC work in VATSIM and IVAO, controlling airspace for flight sim players.
  - akpa1 2y ago
    It's super rewarding to do, but you do need actual training and often there are big waiting lists.
- cjrp 2y ago
  For a modern equivalent, I'd recommend atc-sim.com
nateguchi 2y ago
See also: https://signalmaps.co.uk/#gwml1:1627 https://signalmaps.co.uk/#gwml1:1627 Live signal maps in the UK
- amouat 2y ago
  Also traksy e.g: https://traksy.uk/live/T+EDB+KGX+d+@2024-07-10T13:00/M+1+EDINBUR https://traksy.uk/live/T+EDB+KGX+d+@2024-07-10T13:00/M+1+EDI...
  - class700 2y ago
    There's also OpenTrainTimes https://www.opentraintimes.com/maps/signalling/wat#T_WATRLMN https://www.opentraintimes.com/maps/signalling/wat#T_WATRLMN And https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/ https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/ for precise times/platform information.
    - marksomnian 2y ago
      And https://www.map.signalbox.io/ https://www.map.signalbox.io/, which tries to interpolate signal locations onto a geographic map (with the expected level of inaccuracy, though still not half-bad)
londons_explore 2y ago
Railway signalling IMO is an area where a little research could dramatically increase the throughput of the railway network with a rather low cost. Todays railways mostly use fixed block signalling. Expensive and unreliable equipment ensures that there is only one train on each 'block' of railway track at the same time. That forces trains to be at least 1 or 2 blocks apart, which are frequently multiple miles long. End result: Trains are usually 10's of minutes apart, or at least 1 minute apart even in urban subway systems. A more advanced system would aim to have trains as close together as cars are on a freeway. Trains would be able to hitch and unhitch whilst moving 100 mph, allowing different loads to be sent different directions and different sets of passengers to stop at different stations. Crashes would be avoided by having every train know about the train ahead and behind, and unable to make any move which would cause a collision (ie. it is not allowed to slam the brakes on if there is a train right behind you). Such a system would be implemented primarily on the trains, and primarily in software. Software is expensive to develop then cheap to replicate, a property very important if you want to deploy it widely. It would be backwards compatible with fixed block signalling by simply saying that within each existing fixed block there is either one legacy train, or an unlimited number of gen 2 trains who will all communicate with eachother (and any train who cannot communicate with every other train within the block is not allowed to enter the block). Hardware/software failures are kept safe by simulating every possible type of failure (ie. braking, locomotion, power, derail, position uncertainty, comms), and every second generating a plan which will be executed by every train in case of each type of failure occurring. Any move any train wants to make where any of the above plans cannot be generated with a safe outcome isn't allowed.
- dividuum 2y ago
  > A more advanced system would aim to have trains as close together as cars are on a freeway. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Train_Control_System#Level_3 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Train_Control_System#...
  - londons_explore 2y ago
    This still doesn't allow train spacing of less than the braking distance. Braking distance of trains is large (due to high uncertainty in track friction), which still means trains are typically 1 minute or more apart when moving fast. As long as you have comms with the trains around, it's clearly possible to safely go less than the braking distance, as long as you can be sure of the behaviour of the train ahead, even in the case of an equipment failure (ie. in case of a power failure, it will not slam the brakes on, but decelerate at X m/s^2).
cmul 2y ago
For German speakers: https://www.estw-simulator.de/index.html https://www.estw-simulator.de/index.html https://www.estwsim.de/cms/index.php https://www.estwsim.de/cms/index.php These have been around for a while and quite closely mimic (slightly older) German signalling specifications for signaller interfaces. My company builds such systems as test and demonstration systems for real railway projects with respective functional safety constraints. If you're interested to learn more about the signalling infrastructure in Europe or Germany, feel free to ask.
- shagie 2y ago
  Also in the German train signaling ... https://www.eisenbahnbetriebsfeld.de https://www.eisenbahnbetriebsfeld.de A Tom Scott video on it - The world's most useful model railway https://youtu.be/6TLcaJdsRr0 https://youtu.be/6TLcaJdsRr0
0xTJ 2y ago
This is the sort of simulation/game, like Dwarf Fortress (especially older versions) where I don't have the slightest idea what's going on, or how to make things happen, but am still having plenty of fun.
snjsjwhwjnweek 2y ago
[flagged]
quinnharley 2y ago
[dead]
Animats 2y ago
My favorite simulator for railway signals is NXSYS.[1] This simulates General Railway Signal's NX system down to the relay level. NX had the first "intelligent user interface" device. When a train enters the interlocking, the dispatcher pushes an entry button to indicate they want to dispatch that train. All the possible exit points then light up. The dispatcher then pushes the button at the appropriate exit light, and all the signals and switches are set up for that route. Routing within the interlocking is automatic. Exit lights only light up if there's an available path. The system is aware of trains in the interlocking, switches locked for maintenance, and the actual position of switches, signals, and train stop devices. As a train moves through the interlocking, track space and switches are released behind it automatically, becoming available for other trains. Today this seems routine, but it was a huge breakthrough in the 1930s. The original marketing brochure is available online.[2] [1] https://bernardgreenberg.com/Subway/ https://bernardgreenberg.com/Subway/ [2] https://anyflip.com/lbes/vczg https://anyflip.com/lbes/vczg
tyteen4a03 2y ago
While we're on the topic of niche railway games, I highly recommend [NIMBY Rails](https://store.steampowered.com/app/1134710/NIMBY_Rails/ https://store.steampowered.com/app/1134710/NIMBY_Rails/) - it is the closest you can get to building functional railway systems in a game.

228 points by untilted 2y ago

This is really cool! For people who don't want to go full scale sim and prefer a bit of a lighter interpretation of working with signalling screens, I can recommend Rail Route (https://store.steampowered.com/app/1124180/Rail_Route/ https://store.steampowered.com/app/1124180/Rail_Route/).

fragmede 2y ago
For people that want a railway simulator that includes game mechanics to drive a lot of complexity, try Factorio.
- 8372049 2y ago
  Or OpenTTD https://www.openttd.org https://www.openttd.org
  - mrguyorama 2y ago
    OpenTTD's default signaling system is mediocre. "Path signals" which are "recommended" and the only signal system not locked behind a settings change, will get you into trouble more often than not. You can only put a path signal somewhere where "it is safe for an arbitrary train to park here", which is a problem more often than not. If you are used to block signalling, as used in real trains, path signals will repeatedly surprise you in unfortunate ways. You have to basically deprogram everything you learned about signalling and even build rather different track layouts to use them. Add to that, platforms are not integrated into path signals in any useful way, so a train will sometimes refuse to advance to it's destination platform if it is a "Drive through" capable station if it cannot reserve a path well past it's desired endpoint. IMO block signals are much simpler to understand for simple use cases, even if it is hard to make complicated railways with them. I think for normal people picking up OpenTTD, they would be a better choice.
    - TylerE 2y ago
      Path signals are closer to how a modern signaling system operates. They absolutely can allocate multiple paths through the same block as long as the position of switches guarantees no conflicts.
  - loa_in_ 2y ago
    Especially a fork called JGR's patchpack, featuring programmable signals and so much more.
- gsck 2y ago
  Pretty sure the developers of Factorio made a train game based around the train system in Factorio. Can't for the life of me remember its name but it looks rather good
  - chin7an 2y ago
    Is it Sweet Transit? The about section mentions that the developer was part of Factorio. Edit to add link - https://www.sweettransitgame.com/ https://www.sweettransitgame.com/
    - gsck 2y ago
      Yes, that's the one. Never played it, but from my understanding its effectively just the train system lifted out of Factorio with a game built around it.
    - Cthulhu_ 2y ago
      It even looks like the rail assets were lifted straight from Factorio. I mean if it's all above board it's fine - Factorio's train system is really good. That said, they're also giving it major updates/overhauls in the upcoming update, so this one would be falling behind if there's no good relationships between the two.
      - TylerE 2y ago
        The mechanics or more or less entirely unlike factorio. It’s this really weird city sim / train game hybrid that is pretty crappy at both halves.
  - TylerE 2y ago
    He was one of the graphics contractors not a dev. It is not very good. The game design is just and, failing to be either a good train sim or an interesting strategy game. It basically flopped in early access.

wiz21c 2y ago

first paragraph on home page is really funny and alluring : "... How often has your train been delayed because of "signal failure" and you've wondered why trains can't be routed around the problem - or why it is even a problem in the first place? You'll soon see exactly why - with SimSig!" really resonates with my experience as a commuter

rwmj 2y ago

Memories of playing Heathrow Air Traffic Control (https://www.spectrumcomputing.co.uk/entry/2270/ZX-Spectrum/Heathrow_Air_Traffic_Control https://www.spectrumcomputing.co.uk/entry/2270/ZX-Spectrum/H...)

8372049 2y ago
Nowadays you can do virtual ATC work in VATSIM and IVAO, controlling airspace for flight sim players.
- akpa1 2y ago
  It's super rewarding to do, but you do need actual training and often there are big waiting lists.
cjrp 2y ago
For a modern equivalent, I'd recommend atc-sim.com

nateguchi 2y ago

See also: https://signalmaps.co.uk/#gwml1:1627 https://signalmaps.co.uk/#gwml1:1627 Live signal maps in the UK

amouat 2y ago
Also traksy e.g: https://traksy.uk/live/T+EDB+KGX+d+@2024-07-10T13:00/M+1+EDINBUR https://traksy.uk/live/T+EDB+KGX+d+@2024-07-10T13:00/M+1+EDI...
- class700 2y ago
  There's also OpenTrainTimes https://www.opentraintimes.com/maps/signalling/wat#T_WATRLMN https://www.opentraintimes.com/maps/signalling/wat#T_WATRLMN And https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/ https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/ for precise times/platform information.
  - marksomnian 2y ago
    And https://www.map.signalbox.io/ https://www.map.signalbox.io/, which tries to interpolate signal locations onto a geographic map (with the expected level of inaccuracy, though still not half-bad)

londons_explore 2y ago

Railway signalling IMO is an area where a little research could dramatically increase the throughput of the railway network with a rather low cost. Todays railways mostly use fixed block signalling. Expensive and unreliable equipment ensures that there is only one train on each 'block' of railway track at the same time. That forces trains to be at least 1 or 2 blocks apart, which are frequently multiple miles long. End result: Trains are usually 10's of minutes apart, or at least 1 minute apart even in urban subway systems. A more advanced system would aim to have trains as close together as cars are on a freeway. Trains would be able to hitch and unhitch whilst moving 100 mph, allowing different loads to be sent different directions and different sets of passengers to stop at different stations. Crashes would be avoided by having every train know about the train ahead and behind, and unable to make any move which would cause a collision (ie. it is not allowed to slam the brakes on if there is a train right behind you). Such a system would be implemented primarily on the trains, and primarily in software. Software is expensive to develop then cheap to replicate, a property very important if you want to deploy it widely. It would be backwards compatible with fixed block signalling by simply saying that within each existing fixed block there is either one legacy train, or an unlimited number of gen 2 trains who will all communicate with eachother (and any train who cannot communicate with every other train within the block is not allowed to enter the block). Hardware/software failures are kept safe by simulating every possible type of failure (ie. braking, locomotion, power, derail, position uncertainty, comms), and every second generating a plan which will be executed by every train in case of each type of failure occurring. Any move any train wants to make where any of the above plans cannot be generated with a safe outcome isn't allowed.

dividuum 2y ago
> A more advanced system would aim to have trains as close together as cars are on a freeway. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Train_Control_System#Level_3 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Train_Control_System#...
- londons_explore 2y ago
  This still doesn't allow train spacing of less than the braking distance. Braking distance of trains is large (due to high uncertainty in track friction), which still means trains are typically 1 minute or more apart when moving fast. As long as you have comms with the trains around, it's clearly possible to safely go less than the braking distance, as long as you can be sure of the behaviour of the train ahead, even in the case of an equipment failure (ie. in case of a power failure, it will not slam the brakes on, but decelerate at X m/s^2).

cmul 2y ago

For German speakers: https://www.estw-simulator.de/index.html https://www.estw-simulator.de/index.html https://www.estwsim.de/cms/index.php https://www.estwsim.de/cms/index.php These have been around for a while and quite closely mimic (slightly older) German signalling specifications for signaller interfaces. My company builds such systems as test and demonstration systems for real railway projects with respective functional safety constraints. If you're interested to learn more about the signalling infrastructure in Europe or Germany, feel free to ask.

shagie 2y ago
Also in the German train signaling ... https://www.eisenbahnbetriebsfeld.de https://www.eisenbahnbetriebsfeld.de A Tom Scott video on it - The world's most useful model railway https://youtu.be/6TLcaJdsRr0 https://youtu.be/6TLcaJdsRr0

0xTJ 2y ago

This is the sort of simulation/game, like Dwarf Fortress (especially older versions) where I don't have the slightest idea what's going on, or how to make things happen, but am still having plenty of fun.

snjsjwhwjnweek 2y ago

[flagged]

quinnharley 2y ago

[dead]

Animats 2y ago

My favorite simulator for railway signals is NXSYS.[1] This simulates General Railway Signal's NX system down to the relay level. NX had the first "intelligent user interface" device. When a train enters the interlocking, the dispatcher pushes an entry button to indicate they want to dispatch that train. All the possible exit points then light up. The dispatcher then pushes the button at the appropriate exit light, and all the signals and switches are set up for that route. Routing within the interlocking is automatic. Exit lights only light up if there's an available path. The system is aware of trains in the interlocking, switches locked for maintenance, and the actual position of switches, signals, and train stop devices. As a train moves through the interlocking, track space and switches are released behind it automatically, becoming available for other trains. Today this seems routine, but it was a huge breakthrough in the 1930s. The original marketing brochure is available online.[2] [1] https://bernardgreenberg.com/Subway/ https://bernardgreenberg.com/Subway/ [2] https://anyflip.com/lbes/vczg https://anyflip.com/lbes/vczg

tyteen4a03 2y ago

While we're on the topic of niche railway games, I highly recommend [NIMBY Rails](https://store.steampowered.com/app/1134710/NIMBY_Rails/ https://store.steampowered.com/app/1134710/NIMBY_Rails/) - it is the closest you can get to building functional railway systems in a game.