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I think there is a lot of evidence that using terms like "cis men" is the more poisonous attitude in the current day. GNC folks are not the norm. The clue is i

I think there is a lot of evidence that using terms like "cis men" is the more poisonous attitude in the current day. GNC folks are not the norm. The clue is in the name. It's all well and good to let people choose things for themselves but young people need guidance, not a divisive and inaccurate model of the world pushed on them.

superb_dev 2y ago
I’d like to see that evidence. Which “divisive and inaccurate model” are you talking about exactly?
- justonenote 2y ago
  Specifically I am talking about the inaccurate model that there is no sex differences and the idea of male and female genders are socially constructed.
  - danShumway 2y ago
    This is somewhat begging the question. It assumes that: A) this is a unified model for how queer people talk about gender. B) the term "cisgender" does anything at all to advance it. And C) that it causes harm. without providing any evidence for any of those claims. ---- It also assumes: D) that the multiple ideas being bundled up here are entirely incorrect, or that they are some kind of new idea. Male and female genders are socially constructed, at the very least in presentation -- and that's not a new idea, it's an entirely uncontroversial understanding of gender that's been around for ages. Just as one example, pink used to be a manly color. Social stereotypes of women as innocent or highly sexual and wild also vary between cultures and time periods. This has been a theory of gender for a long time, it's not a new idea. And it has nothing to do with sexual biological differences beyond expressing the (again, entirely uncontroversial and generally accepted) idea that not all social customs and attitudes are 100% biologically based. ---- And you might have criticism of that model, just like you might have criticisms of gender essentialism. There is not uniformity on how to view gender even within queer communities. There is no singular model to debunk. Everyone (queer or not) has their own model of gender. And that's the final problem to bring up, that you're also assuming: E) that the statement "I'm not cisgender, I'm normal" doesn't have harmful effects, or that it doesn't push people towards a competing model of gender with its own flaws and inaccuracies that could be interrogated in the exact same way as other gender/sex models.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
  - superb_dev 2y ago
    “There is no sex differences” is not a belief that anyone seriously holds, it’s an obvious strawman. “Male and female genders [aren’t] socially constructed” I don’t think the science agrees with you there.
drekk 2y ago
It's really telling that you used the normative framing rather than talking about how common it is. I get it. We're abnormal, atypical freaks. Aberrations. Being redheaded is uncommon; being trans is abomination. You're free to choose your words and framing as you wish. But don't pretend teaching people about sexuality, gender identity, and how society sorts humans into two boxes is the real division and inaccuracy.
- inexcf 2y ago
  Why do you think "abnormal" is bad?
doggero 2y ago
The main problem with terms like "cis men" is it's based on the idea there are two categories of men: male men and female men. The latter are, in fact, women who call themselves men. I don't see why the rest of us should be compelled to think of them as men. It's really toxic, as this implies that men need to behave in a certain way, present in a certain way, think in a certain way to be considered men. And that if a woman does that too, then she's a man. I'm not accepting this sexist nonsense. There's nothing wrong with challenging and rejecting gender roles imposed upon us and it doesn't make any man less of a man or not a man for doing so. Same for women. Plus I would argue that gender non-comformity actually is the norm. Hardly anyone is a walking gender stereotype, right? We all have differences from these imposed cultural ideals of, depending on your sex, men or women. Best guidance is be yourself and don't pay any heed to people trying to enforce gender roles.
- danShumway 2y ago
  > as this implies that men need to behave in a certain way, present in a certain way, think in a certain way to be considered men. This gets brought up sometimes in terf talking points, but as a practical reality, it's nonsense. Every queer community I've interacted with has always been great about accepting gender non-conformity. The separation of "passing" from gender identity is an important part of recognizing that gender expression within a society is a social construct for good and for ill, and that a large part of gender presentation is play-acting in the way that society expects a man/woman to act. "My gender is not how I act/present, it's what I am" is a common refrain in queer communities, as is the idea that you don't have to pass to be a gender, as is the idea that gender identity persists even when someone is in the closet. In contrast, "we can always tell" is the 'gender-critical' talking point. To be very clear: it is not transgender people harassing butch lesbians for using women's bathrooms. It is the terfs doing that crap. They phrase it as "my gender isn't whether or not I like pink" but in practice terf ideology usually ends up descending into biological essentialism and an omnipresent suspicion over whether or not women are "feminine" enough. In this very comment section, take a look at who is arguing that biological differences are sufficient to explain demographic differences and gender biases within LLMs. Hint: it's not the trans community :)
locopati 2y ago
It's really pathetic that repeatedly this community cannot discuss gender without a handful of people protesting that trans people don't exist or that there's some cabal to damage children.
- inexcf 2y ago
  Reading this thread i haven't seen anyone " protesting that trans people don't exist or that there's some cabal to damage children." yet. But what kind of discussion do you wish for? One where no differing opinions are allowed?

superb_dev 2y ago

I’d like to see that evidence. Which “divisive and inaccurate model” are you talking about exactly?

justonenote 2y ago
Specifically I am talking about the inaccurate model that there is no sex differences and the idea of male and female genders are socially constructed.
- danShumway 2y ago
  This is somewhat begging the question. It assumes that: A) this is a unified model for how queer people talk about gender. B) the term "cisgender" does anything at all to advance it. And C) that it causes harm. without providing any evidence for any of those claims. ---- It also assumes: D) that the multiple ideas being bundled up here are entirely incorrect, or that they are some kind of new idea. Male and female genders are socially constructed, at the very least in presentation -- and that's not a new idea, it's an entirely uncontroversial understanding of gender that's been around for ages. Just as one example, pink used to be a manly color. Social stereotypes of women as innocent or highly sexual and wild also vary between cultures and time periods. This has been a theory of gender for a long time, it's not a new idea. And it has nothing to do with sexual biological differences beyond expressing the (again, entirely uncontroversial and generally accepted) idea that not all social customs and attitudes are 100% biologically based. ---- And you might have criticism of that model, just like you might have criticisms of gender essentialism. There is not uniformity on how to view gender even within queer communities. There is no singular model to debunk. Everyone (queer or not) has their own model of gender. And that's the final problem to bring up, that you're also assuming: E) that the statement "I'm not cisgender, I'm normal" doesn't have harmful effects, or that it doesn't push people towards a competing model of gender with its own flaws and inaccuracies that could be interrogated in the exact same way as other gender/sex models.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
- superb_dev 2y ago
  “There is no sex differences” is not a belief that anyone seriously holds, it’s an obvious strawman. “Male and female genders [aren’t] socially constructed” I don’t think the science agrees with you there.

drekk 2y ago

It's really telling that you used the normative framing rather than talking about how common it is. I get it. We're abnormal, atypical freaks. Aberrations. Being redheaded is uncommon; being trans is abomination. You're free to choose your words and framing as you wish. But don't pretend teaching people about sexuality, gender identity, and how society sorts humans into two boxes is the real division and inaccuracy.

inexcf 2y ago
Why do you think "abnormal" is bad?

doggero 2y ago

The main problem with terms like "cis men" is it's based on the idea there are two categories of men: male men and female men. The latter are, in fact, women who call themselves men. I don't see why the rest of us should be compelled to think of them as men. It's really toxic, as this implies that men need to behave in a certain way, present in a certain way, think in a certain way to be considered men. And that if a woman does that too, then she's a man. I'm not accepting this sexist nonsense. There's nothing wrong with challenging and rejecting gender roles imposed upon us and it doesn't make any man less of a man or not a man for doing so. Same for women. Plus I would argue that gender non-comformity actually is the norm. Hardly anyone is a walking gender stereotype, right? We all have differences from these imposed cultural ideals of, depending on your sex, men or women. Best guidance is be yourself and don't pay any heed to people trying to enforce gender roles.

danShumway 2y ago
> as this implies that men need to behave in a certain way, present in a certain way, think in a certain way to be considered men. This gets brought up sometimes in terf talking points, but as a practical reality, it's nonsense. Every queer community I've interacted with has always been great about accepting gender non-conformity. The separation of "passing" from gender identity is an important part of recognizing that gender expression within a society is a social construct for good and for ill, and that a large part of gender presentation is play-acting in the way that society expects a man/woman to act. "My gender is not how I act/present, it's what I am" is a common refrain in queer communities, as is the idea that you don't have to pass to be a gender, as is the idea that gender identity persists even when someone is in the closet. In contrast, "we can always tell" is the 'gender-critical' talking point. To be very clear: it is not transgender people harassing butch lesbians for using women's bathrooms. It is the terfs doing that crap. They phrase it as "my gender isn't whether or not I like pink" but in practice terf ideology usually ends up descending into biological essentialism and an omnipresent suspicion over whether or not women are "feminine" enough. In this very comment section, take a look at who is arguing that biological differences are sufficient to explain demographic differences and gender biases within LLMs. Hint: it's not the trans community :)

locopati 2y ago

It's really pathetic that repeatedly this community cannot discuss gender without a handful of people protesting that trans people don't exist or that there's some cabal to damage children.

inexcf 2y ago
Reading this thread i haven't seen anyone " protesting that trans people don't exist or that there's some cabal to damage children." yet. But what kind of discussion do you wish for? One where no differing opinions are allowed?